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Extreme Islamist Groups in universities

OSLO

War Hero
There was a piece on the Today programme this morning talking about how islamist groups are spreading in UK universities. The young man that was the "accuser" of this situation stated that there is a need for students, lecturers and vice-chancellors to "do something" to stem this rise. But he didn't mention, and there was no mention of it in subsequent discussions, that there is a greater need for muslims to fight this "menace" themselves, for muslim parents to instill the standards of faith in their children that will help them recognise what these groups are, extremist distortions of their faith.

I'm getting a little tired of the thrust of fighting islamist extremism being pushed away from islam and onto the rest of the public.
 

ukdaytona

War Hero
Nothing like a good fight but only for those with that can be interested....

When watching the 'moderates' islam followers telling everyone how its only the few radicals causing the trouble etc, they dont seem to be too bothered about trying to talk the the radical/extremists but leave it to everyone else so that when the proverbial hits the fan its not their fault but the 'Wests'
 
ukdaytona said:
Nothing like a good fight but only for those with that can be interested....

When watching the 'moderates' islam followers telling everyone how its only the few radicals causing the trouble etc, they dont seem to be too bothered about trying to talk the the radical/extremists but leave it to everyone else so that when the proverbial hits the fan its not their fault but the 'Wests'

So all the public statements, and the rally in Glasgow after the latest incidents were figments of my imagination. Perhaps if some of the anti moslems actually found out more about what is actually happening in the moslem community they would be more supportive and perhaps help prevent the radicalisation of the some of them, it is not 'their' rpoblem, it is 'our' problem.
 

Six_and_a_Half

Lantern Swinger
ukdaytona said:
Nothing like a good fight but only for those with that can be interested....

When watching the 'moderates' islam followers telling everyone how its only the few radicals causing the trouble etc, they dont seem to be too bothered about trying to talk the the radical/extremists but leave it to everyone else so that when the proverbial hits the fan its not their fault but the 'Wests'

In fairness Christians don't usually try to talk to the radical/extremist bible-bashers either. Its left to the police to prevent these twits from causing trouble.

But the only people who can stamp out Islamic Extremism are the muslim parents and the preachers in the mosques, as has already been said. Fanatics are formed when impressionable young people are brainwashed by somebody they look up to and respect. You cannot reason with a religious fanatic, because they are closed-minded and obsessed to the point when it has and is changing their personality.

But universities do take a stance on this and I will use my university as an example. The Islamic Society invited a mullah from a mosque in Birmingham to deliver a talk on the muslim response to the attacks on the World Trade Centre, and this invitation was authorised by the university until the university learnt that this chap actually condoned terrorism. The lecture was soon cancelled which was a shame somewhat, because I REALLY wanted to heckle!
 

ukdaytona

War Hero
Maxi_77 said:
ukdaytona said:
Nothing like a good fight but only for those with that can be interested....

When watching the 'moderates' islam followers telling everyone how its only the few radicals causing the trouble etc, they dont seem to be too bothered about trying to talk the the radical/extremists but leave it to everyone else so that when the proverbial hits the fan its not their fault but the 'Wests'

So all the public statements, and the rally in Glasgow after the latest incidents were figments of my imagination. Perhaps if some of the anti moslems actually found out more about what is actually happening in the moslem community they would be more supportive and perhaps help prevent the radicalisation of the some of them, it is not 'their' rpoblem, it is 'our' problem.

At what point did my initial post say anything about Anti Moslem, it quotes followers of Islam who can be from any country so it is not a Moslem thing it is an Islamic thing......
 

Karma

War Hero
ukdaytona said:
..... they dont seem to be too bothered about trying to talk the the radical/extremists....

They just don't seem to get the same airtime. Generally Today are pretty good about presenting a balanced view of what's going on, but the tabloids, and indeed some broadsheets, tend to focus only on polarising the debate.
 

Karma

War Hero
ukdaytona said:
....so it is not a Moslem thing it is an Islamic thing......

Huh?

It's not an islam thing it's an islam thing?

Forgive me for being stupid here, but I really don't get the statement.
 

slim

War Hero
Maxi_77 said:
ukdaytona said:
Nothing like a good fight but only for those with that can be interested....

When watching the 'moderates' islam followers telling everyone how its only the few radicals causing the trouble etc, they dont seem to be too bothered about trying to talk the the radical/extremists but leave it to everyone else so that when the proverbial hits the fan its not their fault but the 'Wests'

So all the public statements, and the rally in Glasgow after the latest incidents were figments of my imagination. Perhaps if some of the anti moslems actually found out more about what is actually happening in the moslem community they would be more supportive and perhaps help prevent the radicalisation of the some of them, it is not 'their' rpoblem, it is 'our' problem.

Maxi
You like myself have probably worked in a number of Islamic countries for periods of time. I have noticed that when it comes to Infidels (non believers) and Muslims the Muslim position will be taken at ALL times regardless of the truth. An example was one of our engineers was in a taxi in Egypt, the taxi was involved in an accident, our engineer was blamed and had to pay all costs. The reason, if it had not been for the engineer the taxi would not have been in that area at that time, therefore the accident would not have occurred
Now admittedly we are seeing some Muslims starting to stand up and be counted. However these are in the minority.
Remember the Muslim population celebrating in the streets after 7/11? Cheering and laughing at the pointless deaths of innocent victims.

Lets have more support from the Muslim community and less criticism of the security forces.
 

ukdaytona

War Hero
Karma said:
ukdaytona said:
....so it is not a Moslem thing it is an Islamic thing......

Huh?

It's not an islam thing it's an islam thing?

Forgive me for being stupid here, but I really don't get the statement.

Dont appologise for being stupid, we all have crosses to bear......
 

PINCH

War Hero
our engineer was blamed and had to pay all costs. The reason, if it had not been for the engineer the taxi would not have been in that area at that time, therefore the accident would not have occurred

And what may I ask is wrong with that bit of logic........ True but hard to take in
 

slim

War Hero
PINCH said:
our engineer was blamed and had to pay all costs. The reason, if it had not been for the engineer the taxi would not have been in that area at that time, therefore the accident would not have occurred

And what may I ask is wrong with that bit of logic........ True but hard to take in

Nothing at all.
In fact to carry the logical approach further.
Infidel Engineers today were stoned to death for causing the deaths of several Egyptian Taxi drivers. They were found guilty because they refused to take taxi's and walked to work, this action caused several taxi drivers to lose their livelihood and starve to death.
 

Karma

War Hero
ukdaytona said:
Karma said:
ukdaytona said:
....so it is not a Moslem thing it is an Islamic thing......

Huh?

It's not an islam thing it's an islam thing?

Forgive me for being stupid here, but I really don't get the statement.

Dont appologise for being stupid, we all have crosses to bear......

Are you going to explain what you said, in english preferably?

I'll drop the subtlety this time.
 

ukdaytona

War Hero
Karma said:
ukdaytona said:
Karma said:
ukdaytona said:
....so it is not a Moslem thing it is an Islamic thing......

Huh?

It's not an islam thing it's an islam thing?

Forgive me for being stupid here, but I really don't get the statement.

Dont appologise for being stupid, we all have crosses to bear......

Are you going to explain what you said, in english preferably?

I'll drop the subtlety this time.

My original quote said IT IS NOT A MOSLEM THING IT IS AN ISLAMIC THING as in not all Muslims may be followers of the Islamic faith and there are non Muslims who are followers of the islamic faith, at no point did I say 'Its not an islam thing its an islam thing'

If the media put on something like Questiontime where they had a Radical Cleric, a Moderate Cleric and maybe representatives of other faith groups they could all express their views and why (in their oppinion) the direction of their faith is the right one then maybe it will help to give some understanding
 

Karma

War Hero
ukdaytona said:
My original quote said IT IS NOT A MOSLEM THING IT IS AN ISLAMIC THING as in not all Muslims may be followers of the Islamic faith and there are non Muslims who are followers of the islamic faith, at no point did I say 'Its not an islam thing its an islam thing'

A Muslim is a follower of Islam.

Islam is the religion, Muslims are the adherenets, regardless of their heritage.

Much of Islam comes from an Arabic background, reflecting the origins of the prophet and the driving force behind the expansion of the faith in it's early stages.

The Wahabi form of Islam which is most common amongst the vocal minority is itself of Arabic origins but is also heavily influenced by the madrassa system from Pakistan, which originated following the activities of the East India company in the 19th Century.



I appreciate that the popular media doesn't tend to mention these issues though.
 
Have the extreme Muslims in the Universities swept into the vacuum left by the Communists? Haven't these places always been full of bloody extremists? albeit some less violent than others.
 

Karma

War Hero
Passed-over_Loggie said:
Have the extreme Muslims in the Universities swept into the vacuum left by the Communists? Haven't these places always been full of bloody extremists? albeit some less violent than others.

When I did my first degree it was Sinn Fein (Roman Catholic extremists)
 
slim said:
Maxi_77 said:
ukdaytona said:
Nothing like a good fight but only for those with that can be interested....

When watching the 'moderates' islam followers telling everyone how its only the few radicals causing the trouble etc, they dont seem to be too bothered about trying to talk the the radical/extremists but leave it to everyone else so that when the proverbial hits the fan its not their fault but the 'Wests'

So all the public statements, and the rally in Glasgow after the latest incidents were figments of my imagination. Perhaps if some of the anti moslems actually found out more about what is actually happening in the moslem community they would be more supportive and perhaps help prevent the radicalisation of the some of them, it is not 'their' rpoblem, it is 'our' problem.

Maxi
You like myself have probably worked in a number of Islamic countries for periods of time. I have noticed that when it comes to Infidels (non believers) and Muslims the Muslim position will be taken at ALL times regardless of the truth. An example was one of our engineers was in a taxi in Egypt, the taxi was involved in an accident, our engineer was blamed and had to pay all costs. The reason, if it had not been for the engineer the taxi would not have been in that area at that time, therefore the accident would not have occurred
Now admittedly we are seeing some Muslims starting to stand up and be counted. However these are in the minority.
Remember the Muslim population celebrating in the streets after 7/11? Cheering and laughing at the pointless deaths of innocent victims.

Lets have more support from the Muslim community and less criticism of the security forces.

Strange as it may seem the taxi incident has a presedent in the UK, in the 'General coditions for towage' the hiring ship is responsible for the tug at all times during the contract, this resulted in the RN having to pay for the damage done to a tug which rammed one of HM Submarines whilst it was alongside in a lock. There is also the general tendency where ever you are for the 'system' to side with the local on principle. I certainly don't remeber great numbers celebrating after 7/11, most round here were battening down the hatches in preparation for the racist counter attacks.

One of the very reasons that the radicals can recruit is because too many people treat all moslems as extremists partly because they are bigots, and partly because our media rarely tries to show the moderate side, but is always ready to use the radical soundbite to represent moslem opinion. l
 

OSLO

War Hero
I disagree with banning them from campus'. Universities are a place for debate, argument and discussion. The best, nay, the ONLY way to erradicate the problem is not to ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist by banning them from campus'. It is only by putting the extreme opinions front and centre, and destroying their stance with debate and logic that we will eradicate them. Gagging Sinn Fein on the BBC didn't help one iota in eliminating the threat from the IRA. The battle of ideology is fought through people's minds not through through their fists.

Take communism: it was held up to scrutiny and found wonting (sp?) through logic (and economics).

But the main combatents against extremist islamic ideology are muslims themselves. The battle will take place in muslim's houses, in their mosques, well before it comes to the police and the rest of UK society to address it (neither can non-muslims ignore the threat).

I also agree that the media spends scant time in promoting the anti-extremist views of muslims, such as the demonstrations in London, etc.
 
OSLO said:
I disagree with banning them from campus'. Universities are a place for debate, argument and discussion. The best, nay, the ONLY way to erradicate the problem is not to ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist by banning them from campus'. It is only by putting the extreme opinions front and centre, and destroying their stance with debate and logic that we will eradicate them. Gagging Sinn Fein on the BBC didn't help one iota in eliminating the threat from the IRA. The battle of ideology is fought through people's minds not through through their fists.

Take communism: it was held up to scrutiny and found wonting (sp?) through logic (and economics).

But the main combatents against extremist islamic ideology are muslims themselves. The battle will take place in muslim's houses, in their mosques, well before it comes to the police and the rest of UK society to address it (neither can non-muslims ignore the threat).

I also agree that the media spends scant time in promoting the anti-extremist views of muslims, such as the demonstrations in London, etc.

In general I agree, but would add that leaving solving the problem to the muslims to solve will not be enough, the moderates need our support so that the youth can see that the choice is clearly between being part of a society that values their contribution, and life beyonf the pale. Too many of the young today see only life beyond the pale any way so why not get the retaliation in first. If you have been abused for your race and religion from the day you went to school by the indigenous population you may just want to believe the radical crap.
 

OSLO

War Hero
Maxi_77 said:
In general I agree, but would add that leaving solving the problem to the muslims to solve will not be enough, the moderates need our support so that the youth can see that the choice is clearly between being part of a society that values their contribution, and life beyonf the pale. Too many of the young today see only life beyond the pale any way so why not get the retaliation in first. If you have been abused for your race and religion from the day you went to school by the indigenous population you may just want to believe the radical crap.

Absoutely, no problem with that. But the problem of identity goes beyond the bounds of religious lines. Ask a teenager what to define what his culture is, ask them to define their values, and they'll be hard pressed to identify them. Thanks to 20 years of PC bloodymindedness and muppetry from the Houses, the British identity is now seen as something to be ashamed of, something for the terraces at football (and cricket and rugby) matches. To be nationalistic, that is, proud to be British, to defend British values, to uphold them, is equated with being right winged. In an effort to be multicultural, we've lost all identity of culture. You go to the cultural crossroads across the world across time and you'll find there s a way to keep one's identity while retaining the core national values. That is, you can be muslim, jewish, hindu or christian, english, polish or jamaican, living in the UK and retaining pride in being part of British society. And it is there, in that area, that the greater "we", the public and politicians, need to work. Not merely to retain the concepts of the "us and them", or to throw words around like "integration" and "cohesion". To do so first requires acknowledgement of what it is to be British, something which hasn't happened for a long time.

But I digress...
 
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