Expanding the Navy again

[Keithdwat579]

Thought I'd try my hand at starting a thread!
What do you think the chances that the Royal Navy will expand again and to what degree and when?
It is clear that the navy fleet and personnel have dropped in size significantly even since 2010, but with a defence review coming up, and a lot of talk in the air of dropping the LPD's, also with a post brexit world coming up, what do you think the chances of a expanding navy? I know there have been a big push to Asia and East of the Suez with the opening of new bases but do we need more ships and more importantly, crew?

 

[Seaweed]

Ask Hammond.

 

[TheMau5e]

I don't know?
It depends on the success of Brexit and the likelihood of war. By the looks of it war is a possibility, Eastern Europe, Korea, Iran and Middle East. So in general I think defence spending is increasing, and also becoming more efficient, along with the new QE class soon becoming operational, I think the navy is finally starting to turn!

Hope I made sense

 

[Anchor Faced]

How do you measure expanding? Hulls? People? Spending? Efficiency? Capability?

We certainly have less vessels than historically, but they are more efficient. Net loss or net gain? (Don't know just trying to look at it differently).

 

[janner]

Where did the more efficient come from, aren't they still having problems with the 45's and Astutes, both will I'm sure become good platforms but they are still not without snags. Do we have enough platforms to escort QE when she becomes fully operational ( commissioning on Thursday) and still fulfil the other deployments required.

 

[Sumo]

capability has to be a key factor? But measuring that can be very subjective?

 

[MCC is the place for me]

capability has to be a key factor? But measuring that can be very subjective?

Agree. But the other thing is that with fewer operational hulls comes the need to keep them available for more of the time. They may be capable but if there are less available hulls then supporting the likes of the QE becomes more of a stretch and less units for other tasks.

We will never get back to the glory days of a Far East Fleet etc so we do have to manage the assets we have. Maybe having senior officers prepared to say "Can't do" instead of the traditional "can do" may be required.

 

[TheMau5e]

Where did the more efficient come from

Im talking about defence spending in this case.

 

[dapperdunn]

the glory days of a Far East Fleet.

 

[barny006]

Fish protection no sweepers or shacks and nimrod's to photograph the illegal trawlers.How are we to patrol our waters, fish protection Carriers.!!

 

[fishhead]

Fish protection no sweepers or shacks and nimrod's to photograph the illegal trawlers.How are we to patrol our waters, fish protection Carriers.!!

How about this for a leftfield idea. The crabs are happily flying their drones in the Middle East so how about deploying them a little nearer to home. I'm not suggesting they let loose missiles at intruding fishing boats(yet) but they could cover a lot of ocean with their cameras. I know the weather in the southwest approaches or the North Sea is not as clement as Syria but there must be enough good weather days to make it a viable option.

 

[Magic_Mushroom]

How about this for a leftfield idea. The crabs are happily flying their drones in the Middle East so how about deploying them a little nearer to home. I'm not suggesting they let loose missiles at intruding fishing boats(yet) but they could cover a lot of ocean with their cameras. I know the weather in the southwest approaches or the North Sea is not as clement as Syria but there must be enough good weather days to make it a viable option.

1. Our current RPAS meet neither the airworthiness nor air traffic regulations required to fly in non-segregated European airspace (although Protector will change that).

2. A Reaper’s EO/IR ball is an exceptionally inefficient way of conducting maritime surveillance.

3. Current UK RPAS cannot fly in icing.

Getting back to the exam question, despite my service, I’d personally love to see a maritime centric defence policy with a far larger RN. Unfortunately, Defence spending remains below 2% and is most certainly NOT increasing.

It’s also no use focusing on ship numbers when your recruitment is around 10% below targets and retention is even worse due to appalling infra and TCoS. If any of the forces are going to resolve their challenges, yes we need more money. However, we also need to convince Joe Public that we’re both relevant and a viable career for them or their kids.

That’s difficult when they come home on leave and tell their mates and/or parents that they’re living in accommodation that the AFPRB sometimes describe as ‘worse than some Victorian prisons’, with no heating or hot water for months or years on end.

Size and capability is not just about the numbers of ships, tanks and aircraft.

Regards,
MM

 

[wave_dodger]

Fish protection no sweepers or shacks and nimrod's to photograph the illegal trawlers.How are we to patrol our waters, fish protection Carriers.!!

MAF have their own cutters to do this. Why do you think IUU is a Navy task?

MAF do get RN support and they can also use Border Force cutters too.

 

[wave_dodger]

MAF have their own cutters to do this. Why do you think IUU is a Navy task?

MAF do get RN support and they can also use Border Force cutters too.

Braindead why @Sumo ? I don't mind the rating if you can support it, but constabulary roles are not for the RN we have no powers, hence why we need MAF and/or BF, urgo why not use their own vessels, which they have and which they deploy. Both agencies even have their own aircraft and also use commercially operated a/c and they have a co-located Ops centre for int sharing and tasking mere yards from where I'm sitting.

Not to mention you've omitted the P-8s which we've bought and which probably will lean in to support activities such as these if they have the capacity.

Do you even know what IUU is without google and the legal ramifications?

 

[wave_dodger]

Thought I'd try my hand at starting a thread!
What do you think the chances that the Royal Navy will expand again and to what degree and when?
It is clear that the navy fleet and personnel have dropped in size significantly even since 2010, but with a defence review coming up, and a lot of talk in the air of dropping the LPD's, also with a post brexit world coming up, what do you think the chances of a expanding navy? I know there have been a big push to Asia and East of the Suez with the opening of new bases but do we need more ships and more importantly, crew?

Aside from the increase that T26, T31 and B2OPV brings which is a marginal net gain, we're likely to see a small reduction; LPH, possibly LPD, possibly SVHO. The platforms aren't the issue, manpower is. Without a significant uplift of 4,500 - 5000 and hugely increased retention (absolutely key) we will continue to lurch from one manning issue to another.

For our tasking we've probably got about the right size fleet, just not in manning terms, especially with the new vessels which will introduce more appropriate types to routinely deploy. If we were to take on more commitments then we'd need to look at the size/shape again.

Fantasy Fleets aside it really comes down to what we're tasked by Government to do and how we tell them in the Navy Plan how we will achieve that.

 

[Sumo]

Braindead why @Sumo ? I don't mind the rating if you can support it, but constabulary roles are not for the RN we have no powers, hence why we need MAF and/or BF, urgo why not use their own vessels, which they have and which they deploy. Both agencies even have their own aircraft and also use commercially operated a/c and they have a co-located Ops centre for int sharing and tasking mere yards from where I'm sitting.

Do you even know what IUU is without google and the legal ramifications?

Touchy are we, brain removed, that's what happens with sausages for fingers on a phone screen.
To ans your Q I was going to ask what is MAF and IUU, without Google I would not have a Scooby, but as I have not Googled I still have no idea

Edited just looked at your last post full of acronyms I don't know, sign of my age and how long I've been a civy? and working in grass roots 3rd/4th tier aviation supplier

 

[WreckerL]

Touchy are we, brain removed, that's what happens with sausages for fingers on a phone screen.
To ans your Q I was going to ask what is MAF and IUU, without Google I would not have a Scooby, but as I have not Googled I still have no idea

Edited just looked at your last post full of acronyms I don't know, sign of my age and how long I've been a civy? and working in grass roots 3rd/4th tier aviation supplier

I googled it

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/international/isu-iuu-eng.htm

Dunno about MAF, goole just comes up with a Christian Aviation fellowship

 

[wave_dodger]

Touchy are we, brain removed, that's what happens with sausages for fingers on a phone screen.
To ans your Q I was going to ask what is MAF and IUU, without Google I would not have a Scooby, but as I have not Googled I still have no idea

Not touchy, can't get worked up over what someone else on the Internet says/feels about me, but I'm constantly bemused by peoples propensity to dismiss things they probably don't have a good idea of.

Anyway - IUU, illegal Unreported and Unregulated fishing, which is subject to massive laws/regulations globally as it's a huge economic and environmental issue. It's a major topic, attracts lots of attention and gets lots of funding/support, but isn't an RN task to resolve.

MAF is Marine and Fisheries Agency , but has then been brought into the Marine Management Organisation (which has a massive set of maritime responsibilities), but if you talk to them they still mention MAF a lot. However, its the body responsible for enforcing sea fisheries legislation, the licensing of British fishing vessels management of fisheries quotas and uses electronic recording and monitoring systems (VMS), satellite monitoring and sea closures to assist enforcement. It also has (3) regional cutters and their crews have legal authority to board/challenge vessels suspected of IUU. They use a lot of satellite imagery and technology to assist them.

One of the ways the RN can/does assist is passing on our collection of AIS and VMS data to the relevant agencies. We hoover huge amounts of this up over massive swathes of the seas, which can help spot ships/boats where they shouldn't be and patterns of life which are suspect.

When we have tasked ships (Fish Squadron - not sure we even have/call it that these days) - I know the OPVs support this in UK waters and most likely around BFSAI - they (I'm sure) have to have agency cover. My point remains, although we lean in, it's not really an RN task. One of my best mates did fish when he was XO of an MCMV, he loathed it but it was something to do when UK based and waiting for a mine to pop up. @alfred_the_great have you done fish?

One of the guys who lurks on here (Ex RN) works for them (MMO), let's see if he nibbles.

 

[Sumo]

@wave_dodger you have fallen into the age old pussers habit of acronyms.
When I first left and ended up on the S&T Upgrade and Astute project (GEC Marconi days) I thought I understood all the acronyms, how wrong I was, when I joined the BEA Astute team the MD said no more acronyms, every department seamed to have their own?

 

[Anchor Faced]

The question of retention has come up a couple of times; what do current or recently left people think would improve this?
Better accommodation at Collingwood?
Different deployment lengths?
Being made to feel more valued?

@janner ; Quite right, I should have said more capable as the ships tend to have 2 or 3 roles and multiple ways of supporting an operation (if they are working).