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EU-the vote you always wanted...

Given a free vote, would you rather...


  • Total voters
    287

Rocket_Ron

Lantern Swinger
Given some of the opinions raised about the EU, i thought it`d be interesting to get a feel of peoples opinion in a secret (if you want) ballot.
 
The problem is not that people do not want to make their feelings known, rather the limited choice of options give probably does not reflect most peoples views.
 
Hmm, if we left the EU completely then all those ex-pats living in EU countries would no longer have the automatic right to remain where they are (free movement within the EU etc). Plus imagine having to negotiate new trade treaties with EU countries, and all the implications that would bring with it. The EU may be far from perfect, but we are so deeply involved that to pull out completely would probably be a really bad thing to do.
 

Rocket_Ron

Lantern Swinger
Maxi_77 said:
The problem is not that people do not want to make their feelings known, rather the limited choice of options give probably does not reflect most peoples views.

It goes back to the old referendum question of a few months ago. The vote should have been on the EU constitution, but one of the panellists on Question Time stated that should we ever get a vote, the question would have been as above (the gist of it anyway). This was due to the govt thinking they`d get the result they wanted with this question.
(Personally i would have voted the same way on both questions.)

Thats why the options are limited to either in or out.
 
Rocket_Ron said:
Maxi_77 said:
The problem is not that people do not want to make their feelings known, rather the limited choice of options give probably does not reflect most peoples views.

It goes back to the old referendum question of a few months ago. The vote should have been on the EU constitution, but one of the panellists on Question Time stated that should we ever get a vote, the question would have been as above (the gist of it anyway). This was due to the govt thinking they`d get the result they wanted with this question.
(Personally i would have voted the same way on both questions.)

Thats why the options are limited to either in or out.

The the advert for the thread is wrong, it is not the EU vote we have always wanted, it is the EU vote you have always wanted, and I'm not plkaying.
 

Rocket_Ron

Lantern Swinger
Maxi_77 said:
The the advert for the thread is wrong, it is not the EU vote we have always wanted, it is the EU vote you have always wanted, and I'm not plkaying.
Yes, on reflection you`re right, the thread title is wrong. It perhaps should have read-`EU-the vote you nearly got...`

But does that alter anything?
 

OSLO

War Hero
There are 2 questions to be answered:
1) Should the UK be part of the EU?
2) Should the UK ratify the new EU treaty as it stands?

Personally, I'd vote "yes" to the first, but would like to see a public and balanced debate on the second, something which there hasn't been.
 
Contributor Mode

The main problem Brits have with the EU is that you insist on obeying every rule and regulation passed by the Commission. Then employing an army of people to enforce the rules, cross every T and dot every I. Then complain about the silly laws, rules, directives etc. All other countries just cherry pick what they want and pay only the faintest lip service to all the rules they do not want to enforce.

As 42 said, if you leave, being about the least popular country in the EU and its Politicians have more to gain in votes and public support by making life as difficult and awkward for the UK to trade withe the EU. Remember the UK in now a service industry provider, a lot of these services could easily move into the EU borders.

Perhaps a total mindset change by Government and Public would be better than to leave.

Nutty.
 
Nutty said:
Contributor Mode

The main problem Brits have with the EU is that you insist on obeying every rule and regulation passed by the Commission. Then employing an army of people to enforce the rules, cross every T and dot every I. Then complain about the silly laws, rules, directives etc. All other countries just cherry pick what they want and pay only the faintest lip service to all the rules they do not want to enforce.

If we just applied all the rules as written it would be better, it's the way our lot screw us by tightening them up to make sure we can't get round them. I agree most countries pay lip service at best to the rules they find a bore.

Nutty said:
As 42 said, if you leave, being about the least popular country in the EU and its Politicians have more to gain in votes and public support by making life as difficult and awkward for the UK to trade withe the EU. Remember the UK in now a service industry provider, a lot of these services could easily move into the EU borders.

Perhaps a total mindset change by Government and Public would be better than to leave.

Nutty.

I would agree if we left we would be in for 5 to 10 years of real pain as we replaced the lost business elsewhere. Equally there would be all the expats in Spain etc who would be kicked out as well, they would probably be enough to sway the vote at the next election to a party promising rejoining.

As I see it the only sensible way forward is to stay in but stop being the odd man out, lead from the front and drive the union down our path. Especially with the continuing expansion there are plenty of votes for UK leadership if it really leads. The Franco/German axis gets away with it's ideas just because they are leading from the front and usually have the only plan in town anyway. For those who say we only joined a 'common market' they must realise that ultimately theonly way we will see a completely level playing field for trade and industry is with closer and closer union of objective and government, the big concern is not so much the direction but the speed of progress. The sceptics are the eternal pessimists whos glass is always almost enpty after the first sip. In a union when one lose ones own sovereignty that is replace by your sovereignty over other,.
 

mikh

MIA
The way the EU is going, there will eventually be a Superstate under 1 government, a process that will take decades to achieve, but imho inevitable if we remain in the union. If it will be a good or bad thing I do not know.

But from what I have seen and read, the powers of our elected government are slowly and surely being eroded, often with the aid of those in power.

I hope that we are eventually given a chance to vote, both on the 'constitution' and on our place in the union, BUT do not forget, the 'constitution' in its original guise has already been voted against in some countries, and all that managed to achieve was for the eurocrats to change the wording a little and call it something else to try and slip it past the us.
 
mikh said:
The way the EU is going, there will eventually be a Superstate under 1 government, a process that will take decades to achieve, but imho inevitable if we remain in the union. If it will be a good or bad thing I do not know.

But from what I have seen and read, the powers of our elected government are slowly and surely being eroded, often with the aid of those in power.

I hope that we are eventually given a chance to vote, both on the 'constitution' and on our place in the union, BUT do not forget, the 'constitution' in its original guise has already been voted against in some countries, and all that managed to achieve was for the eurocrats to change the wording a little and call it something else to try and slip it past the us.

Hence my point about leading from the front. All the sh*t we are getting now is because a bunch of sceptics keep trying to peddle the idea we can have our cake and eat it, whcih as we all know is bollocks. Leaving will cost us all very dearly. unemployment will soar, taxes will rise and benefits fall. The NHS will implode and the only benefit will be that we will cease to become the target of choice for various immigrant groups because they will be better off at home. The only viable choice is becoming the 52nd state, but whether they would want us cut off from Europe is debatable.
 

exile1

Lantern Swinger
Why does everyone automatically assume that the Brits living in Europe would be chucked out? If the majority of ex-pats on the Costas left then it is probable that the Spanish economy would collapse. As for the rest of Europe, those that are not a burden and can pay their way would, I suspect be allowed to remain. Plenty of Non EU nationals live quite happily in the EU, much the same as millions of non Brits, non EU live in the UK!!!!
Having said that, it's not the Common Market I signed up to in the '70's.
IMO The EU needs us more than we need the EU.
 
exile1 said:
Why does everyone automatically assume that the Brits living in Europe would be chucked out? If the majority of ex-pats on the Costas left then it is probable that the Spanish economy would collapse. As for the rest of Europe, those that are not a burden and can pay their way would, I suspect be allowed to remain. Plenty of Non EU nationals live quite happily in the EU, much the same as millions of non Brits, non EU live in the UK!!!!
Having said that, it's not the Common Market I signed up to in the '70's.
IMO The EU needs us more than we need the EU.

You must remeberthe Brits are by no means the only expats on theCostas, and often not the richest either. No they won't all get thrown out but the old rules for getting your residencia will come back and if your incone is not enough, then bye bye. Oh and by the way you can join in the health service but here is the bill to join. We are not the fount of all prosperity for the rest of the world or Europe, andtheyknow it, they may have aneed for some of what we provide, but not half as much as we need their markets.

Dont have a bloated feeling of your own self importance, the deflation isoften very painful.

Yes the EU has changed and the mainreason not all the changes are to our liking is because we have never been in there leading. Ifit is not going our way it is our fault.
 

AfterSSE

War Hero
It's simple...economics drive politics....have you ever wondered why the Polish are over in the UK in swarms, or any of the former Western Bloc of countries....it's the wages.......sheesh, after living on peanuts during the cold war, the wages paid out in the UK must seem like a staggering amount to them, and before you say what the feck does he know, all you have to do is compare your EU whatchyamacllit it with our North American Free Trade agreement we have with the US/Mexico...uh huh....why do you suppose there are approx 20 million illegal Mexicans living in the US......(slowly making there way North)...it's because the peso is worthless (I know the US Dollar is just about there now...lol) but when you can go from making a few peso's a day to roughly $50 USD a day (and medicare and or social assistance) (rough guess) you can see the attraction...they are literally dying by the hundreds in the deserts trying to get into the States..

The Free Trade agreement has had a huge negative impact on our economies, a lot of the high paying trades jobs have moved South, no or little state taxes (Mexicans only except bribes), no environmental laws, very slack labour laws and oh yeah cheap wages...ergo low overhead larger margins of profit...

Thing is, everyone is whining about it instead of doing something about it...adapt or die...that's the business world and no one cares if your left behind, and sadly the Unions are slow to catch on as they try to protect an indifferent workforce, look at what's happening in France, they are finally trying to do something that should have been done 30yrs ago...break the unions.... :hockey:
 
mikh said:
The way the EU is going, there will eventually be a Superstate under 1 government, a process that will take decades to achieve, but imho inevitable if we remain in the union. If it will be a good or bad thing I do not know.

But from what I have seen and read, the powers of our elected government are slowly and surely being eroded, often with the aid of those in power.

I hope that we are eventually given a chance to vote, both on the 'constitution' and on our place in the union, BUT do not forget, the 'constitution' in its original guise has already been voted against in some countries, and all that managed to achieve was for the eurocrats to change the wording a little and call it something else to try and slip it past the us.

The 'Constitution' as already been approved by a majority of states, by whatever process they individually chose.
 

SALTY

Midshipman
I cant vote on those two issues, nothing for me to vote on!
Now if it was a referendum vote on this "new" constitution, yes or no, I would have
 

mikh

MIA
sussex2 said:
The 'Constitution' as already been approved by a majority of states, by whatever process they individually chose.

But Sussex, how many states have put it to a referendum?

The people of the united Kingdom where promised a vote on this issue, but as there is a very high likelihood that we will vote the wrong way, we are not getting one.

Democracy at work the europhile way!
 
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