EU, NO-DEAL BREXIT BACKSTOP...and all that

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Sumo

War Hero
@Levers_Aligned , just out of interest, why do you, in most of your arguments, keep referring to "darker skinned" people and xenophobia. I would argue most,if not all, EU migrants are not "dark skinned" , economic migrants from Africa are a different matter, if that's what you are alluding to.

Many voted leave due to the way the EU is run, or perceived to be run and before you start asking me for objective evidence, no I won't as it's my opinion but for info, I voted remain, I just don't follow the xenophobia argument.
Pointed out above I think he has issues.
 

Levers_Aligned

War Hero
Moderator
@Levers_Aligned , just out of interest, why do you, in most of your arguments, keep referring to "darker skinned" people and xenophobia. I would argue most,if not all, EU migrants are not "dark skinned" , economic migrants from Africa are a different matter, if that's what you are alluding to.

Many voted leave due to the way the EU is run, or perceived to be run and before you start asking me for objective evidence, no I won't as it's my opinion but for info, I voted remain, I just don't follow the xenophobia argument.
I do it because it's incredibly easy to render the Brexit argument down to xenophobia. All else fails miserably. Ask any Brexiter (as I have) for the real figures on how the EU hurts them or which laws they think the EU have too much say on (and if it directly affects them) and they very quickly shut the **** up. They cannot tell anyone how much they are losing in the EU and furthermore, how much they'll instantly gain on exit - or any firm assurances our exit will be a complete ******* cluster on many fronts. Silent. Nada. Nothing.

Which brings one to assume there must be some or other rationality to vote to leave an economic trading bloc, one we are seriously interleaven with. Maybe its 'unelected officials', but as we know, WE vote in MEPs, who elect the executive on our behalf. Maybe it's EU Laws being forced upon us, but as we've seen, UK Parliament has massive say on what gives and what doesn't when it comes to that and in any case, no one can name one law which has a seriously debilitating effect on their lives.

So it MUST be something else. Perhaps it's the profligacy of EU migrants which have 'flooded' our economy. But then again, we have our own set of emigrants who live and luxuriate in Spain, France, Germany and enjoy their kids going to Spanish schools and German hospitals. So it could be ... maybe ... those dirty forrins who are trying to get into this country and rape our women and steal our cash out of our hands. Maybe its them who just turn up, expecting a house,a GP and ten squillion quid and they no speekee eengleesh meester? It's all true! It's in the ******* Daily Mail, FFS.

Yeah. Vote Brexit. TAKE BACK CONTROL!*

*erm, what of?

levers
 

Sumo

War Hero
Still no figures, then?

Anything, eh? Just make it up! Boris did.

levers
What Boris gave was the EU weekly bill, but he forgot to take of the rebate Maggy sorted out, so the real figure is closer to £250m a week but that's not fixed as the number is always changing, in the last 2 years we have paid more than before, you want specifics look it up in the EU Web sites
 

Levers_Aligned

War Hero
Moderator
What Boris gave was the EU weekly bill, but he forgot to take of the rebate Maggy sorted out, so the real figure is closer to £250m a week but that's not fixed as the number is always changing, in the last 2 years we have paid more than before, you want specifics look it up in the EU Web sites
No. YOUR figures, on how membership of the EU affects YOU.

What does it cost YOU, for the UK to be a member of the EU? You must know the answer.

When you have that, tell me how much better you'll be off in say, five, ten, fifteen years.

If you can't answer any of the above, I'd say you've possibly made a bit of a rash decision voting to leave.

Or you've voted to leave for another reason.

levers
 

Sumo

War Hero
No. YOUR figures, on how membership of the EU affects YOU.

What does it cost YOU, for the UK to be a member of the EU? You must know the answer.

When you have that, tell me how much better you'll be off in say, five, ten, fifteen years.

If you can't answer any of the above, I'd say you've possibly made a bit of a rash decision voting to leave.

Or you've voted to leave for another reason.

levers
You ask all these questions, but do not show any major benifits, for staying. How much does the EU add to the UK productivity to make it worth while?
As the poorer members, get worse and not better how much more does the UK have to put in?
some of the poorer countries should not have been allowed to join as economic stability had to be proven over a number of years, not always the case, no, look it up youself.
If you are part of a money wasting badly managed team, who just keep asking for more, do you keep paying, or say no change the way things are run be more efficient, but when they say no this is it do you say ok comfort blanket we will keep paying more or say ok we will end our contract.
We know you ran back to the comfort blanket of the uniform, maybe you have a problem with change a typical Autistic trate?
 

Levers_Aligned

War Hero
Moderator
You ask all these questions, but do not show any major benifits, for staying. How much does the EU add to the UK productivity to make it worth while?
As the vote was for a change of status quo, the onus is on you to make the case, not me. The benefits of staying are manifold. I'll let you justify that when we leave and find out.

As the poorer members, get worse and not better how much more does the UK have to put in?
Again, you are focussing on the 'membership cost' not the benefit of membership. If you want to kiss goodbye to almost a third of a trillion bucks in EU trade just to scratch that Europhobic itch then you'll be accountable for the consequences.

some of the poorer countries should not have been allowed to join as economic stability had to be proven over a number of years, not always the case, no, look it up youself.
So it would be better for them to economically collapse and increase migration, poverty, hardship even death, or slide toward say, Russia for help?

If you are part of a money wasting badly managed team, who just keep asking for more, do you keep paying, or say no change the way things are run be more efficient, but when they say no this is it do you say ok comfort blanket we will keep paying more or say ok we will end our contract.
How much does this 'money wasting' cost you personally? I know you haven't got an answer, and therefore your argument is invalid. Your understanding on the financial machination of the EU and the UK is pitiful. If you could give one figure - one truthfully researched figure which tells us how badly off you are then your whole case becomes somewhat respectable. But you're just an ignorant, easily-led bigot, aren't you? Gut feeling, xenophobia and deep-seated ignorance is all you need to confirm that your Billy Britain proclamations are right. You don't have to prove it. It's all there, in the Daily Mail.

We know you ran back to the comfort blanket of the uniform, maybe you have a problem with change a typical Autistic trate?
What the flying **** does that mean? Is it some sort of attempt at humour? And what does me being back in uniform have to do with this conversation? And 'autism'? Yeah, that's a ******* laugh. Har-har.

You're looking painfully desperate and once again, I have completely surrounded you with your own idiocy.

Piece of piss.

levers
 

Exprop

Lantern Swinger
I have just been having a conversation with a friend about the current situation regarding the EU debate.

He is from Sunderland and, like most people from his region, his family voted to leave. Since then, Nissan have announced that, as a result of the uncertainty with regard to the UK/EU trading relationship, they are seriously considering closing their plant and a substantial number of employees will lose their jobs. Nissan is by far the biggest employer in the region.

This is apparently causing some consternation. The national newspapers and politicians are encouraging them to hold to their views and that they will benefit economically - eventually. In the meantime, friends of his are facing the loss of their livelihood in the near future. They live in a area that previously suffered massive economic losses as a result of pit closures. It is understandable that they are reluctant to go through that again.

His family have never voted conservative but they do have some sympathy with the Brexit party. How should they vote if a general election/referendum is called in the near future?

What is Brexit worth?
 
I have just been having a conversation with a friend about the current situation regarding the EU debate.

He is from Sunderland and, like most people from his region, his family voted to leave. Since then, Nissan have announced that, as a result of the uncertainty with regard to the UK/EU trading relationship, they are seriously considering closing their plant and a substantial number of employees will lose their jobs. Nissan is by far the biggest employer in the region.

This is apparently causing some consternation. The national newspapers and politicians are encouraging them to hold to their views and that they will benefit economically - eventually. In the meantime, friends of his are facing the loss of their livelihood in the near future. They live in a area that previously suffered massive economic losses as a result of pit closures. It is understandable that they are reluctant to go through that again.

His family have never voted conservative but they do have some sympathy with the Brexit party. How should they vote if a general election/referendum is called in the near future?

What is Brexit worth?
Certainly not Corbyn.....frying pan into fire springs to mind....just an opinion.
 

slim

War Hero
Lat time Levers escaped from his box and spouted rubbish I realised that he was definitely a closet racist. Once people stand up to him he plays the racist card, though he will state that he is no racist.
I have already been labeled Racist by him and I do not give a toss. If I valued his opinion then maybe I would listen. However the self opinionated tosser keeps coming back to talling us why we voted to leave.
There are many reasons and most of them are valid.
Levers you have your thoughts which are valid.
I have my thoughts which are equally valid.
Now just stay in your box and realise that you are on a hiding to nothing. You will not change anyones opinion.

From The Gammon Racist Honky
 

Sumo

War Hero
As the vote was for a change of status quo, the onus is on you to make the case, not me. The benefits of staying are manifold. I'll let you justify that when we leave and find out.
Then list all the benefits to show the rest of us you total grasp of the EU and its finer workings?



Again, you are focussing on the 'membership cost' not the benefit of membership. If you want to kiss goodbye to almost a third of a trillion bucks in EU trade just to scratch that Europhobic itch then you'll be accountable for the consequences.

Where is your scare munger evidence we will lose a single penny in trade never mind a Dollar? Evidence please, with valid non scare monger links


So it would be better for them to economically collapse and increase migration, poverty, hardship even death, or slide toward say, Russia for help?

The EU prides itself on all its rules and laws but when it comes to increasing the size of the club they break their own rules. They can economically support a non-member, unless you are increasing your boarders to stop Russian world domination. That will or will not happen regardless what happens to the EU

How much does this 'money wasting' cost you personally? I know you haven't got an answer, and therefore your argument is invalid. Your understanding on the financial machination of the EU and the UK is pitiful. If you could give one figure - one truthfully researched figure which tells us how badly off you are then your whole case becomes somewhat respectable. But you're just an ignorant, easily-led bigot, aren't you? Gut feeling, xenophobia and deep-seated ignorance is all you need to confirm that your Billy Britain proclamations are right. You don't have to prove it. It's all there, in the Daily Mail.

I know that you ran back to your comfort WO Blanket and are used to having everything done for you and spoon fed, you have shown you are ok with words but you maths and research, seems to be lacking, as you ask everyone else to do it, so I’ll start you off. £13B ish after rebate / No of UK tax payers + Business tax payer = cost per tax payer

13000000000/X+Y = your answer you are looking for. This is a best guess as all numbers a variables.

If the research is too difficult and the maths to hard I am sure you have a capable teenager you can detail off.

But it is not totally about the cost of membership, if this was a for profit business it would have gone into bankruptcy years ago, due to inefficiency and money wasting. What the UK joined was the EEC which became the EC and eventually the EU that evolved later. A trade deal in the spirit of the EEC/EC is where we should be aiming not the evolved and evolving EU. But I wouldn’t expect you to understand that. A link to save you having to do anything

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community


What the flying **** does that mean? Is it some sort of attempt at humour? And what does me being back in uniform have to do with this conversation? And 'autism'? Yeah, that's a ******* laugh. Har-har.

No attempt at humor just an observation you don’t like change, you have proven you can string words together but have to fall back on insults and profanities, traits of Autism with Coprolalia. Look it up, sorry, get a junior to look it up.

https://www.autism.org.uk/about/diagnosis.aspx?gclid=CjwKCAjwtO7qBRBQEiwAl5WC2-mJDZXgcabpFTcoSMZNpEDHy_094RHAPIkT9DyxvHqewd2J1WKxEBoCbb8QAvD_BwE

You're looking painfully desperate and once again, I have completely surrounded you with your own idiocy.
I look at you irrational rants and think poor chap, and the Navy is really desperate, needs counselling or at least a hug.

Taking the Piece of piss levers
 

Levers_Aligned

War Hero
Moderator
Lat time Levers escaped from his box and spouted rubbish I realised that he was definitely a closet racist. Once people stand up to him he plays the racist card, though he will state that he is no racist.
And your proof on that accusation is, where, exactly?

I have already been labeled Racist by him and I do not give a toss.
Clearly. An unapologetic racist. I admire your fortitude and honestly. I don't admire your ignorance and bigotry, mind.

If I valued his opinion then maybe I would listen. However the self opinionated tosser keeps coming back to talling us why we voted to leave.
Well, you do seem to be wasting valuable time justifying your own ignorance to me when challenged. Especially when I 'tall' you why you voted to leave (because you show precious little rationale than veiled bigotry and xenophobia)

There are many reasons and most of them are valid.
'Most of them'? Which ones aren't, then? The ones about forriners and unelected grandees and laws and money and ... ooh, most everything else?

Levers you have your thoughts which are valid.
Hang on. I thought you didn't value my opinion? You can't have it both ways here. Oh, hang on. You're a Brexiter. It's your RIGHT to have it both ways, innit?

I have my thoughts which are equally valid.
Yep. Just don't let's talk about evidence to support those thoughts though. Because then you get REALLY cross, don't you?

Now just stay in your box and realise that you are on a hiding to nothing. You will not change anyones opinion.
So the theme is 'shut up'? And the likes of you whine about our lack of democracy.

From The Gammon Racist Honky
If you want to label yourself that way, be my guest. I'd say you're an ignorant, uneducated bigot, myself.

levers
 

SONAR-BENDER

War Hero
SNIP
But then again, we have our own set of emigrants who live and luxuriate in Spain, France, Germany and enjoy their kids going to Spanish schools and German hospitals. So it could be ... maybe ... those dirty forrins who are trying to get into this country and rape our women and steal our cash out of our hands. Maybe its them who just turn up, expecting a house,a GP and ten squillion quid and they no speekee eengleesh meester?
SNIP

If that is (partly) aimed at me, let me tell you some information.

Firstly, I am not in 'Little England' - I hate those type of places. I live off my RN pension and now my OAP.

Spain as a benevolent social state is a non starter. I am Spanish resident, not a Spanish citizen, though I now qualify to become one if I so wish. Should I fall on hard times here it would be 'tough titty' and I'd get NOTHING. No help, no cash, no temporary home.

Spanish citizen has a baby - money given by Government NIL. However if twins, they do get a one off payment of something silly like 120 euros.
Spanish citizen loses job? Very low benefits for 6 months?
Spanish NHS is brilliant and EVERYONE over 60 qualifies.
No OAP bus passes..........
Until recently, if a boat load of migrants washed up on a beach (which they do with monotonous regularity) they used to be shipped straight back across the water. The EU stopped this.

Why do you not agree with the FACT that all 'immigrants' should seek asylum in the first EU country in which they land? Is it possibly because there are no benefits (pun intended) to be had by declaring in Spain, Italy or Greece?

Back in the UK I could now be obtaining all sorts of benefits, especially if I arrived in an inflatable boat rather than a car ferry.

No doubt there will be a long diatribe highlighting and discussing all points in my post - fine. But you are coming across as a real mouth frother over all this - take a deep breath and relax!
 

Levers_Aligned

War Hero
Moderator
I have just been having a conversation with a friend about the current situation regarding the EU debate.

He is from Sunderland and, like most people from his region, his family voted to leave. Since then, Nissan have announced that, as a result of the uncertainty with regard to the UK/EU trading relationship, they are seriously considering closing their plant and a substantial number of employees will lose their jobs. Nissan is by far the biggest employer in the region.

This is apparently causing some consternation. The national newspapers and politicians are encouraging them to hold to their views and that they will benefit economically - eventually. In the meantime, friends of his are facing the loss of their livelihood in the near future. They live in a area that previously suffered massive economic losses as a result of pit closures. It is understandable that they are reluctant to go through that again.

His family have never voted conservative but they do have some sympathy with the Brexit party. How should they vote if a general election/referendum is called in the near future?

What is Brexit worth?
Exprop ... it's a grim irony that Sunderland is copping for one of the effects of Brexit. It's pretty evident that Nissan was heavily invested in the NE's workforce and their reasons for wanting to shut down production is the effects of us leaving the EU. How many more companies are opening an escape route in a similar fashion? Better question - how many companies have made firm declarations they are coming to Britain post-Brexit to open factories and create jobs?

levers
 

Sumo

War Hero
Exprop ... it's a grim irony that Sunderland is copping for one of the effects of Brexit. It's pretty evident that Nissan was heavily invested in the NE's workforce and their reasons for wanting to shut down production is the effects of us leaving the EU. How many more companies are opening an escape route in a similar fashion? Better question - how many companies have made firm declarations they are coming to Britain post-Brexit to open factories and create jobs?

levers
Read what @Exprop said the uncertainty of Brexit, caused mainly by the politician's indecisions, and remain voters scare mongering. if all accepted we live in a democracy and stop crying over the result and focus on the way forward this level of uncertainty would not be there, so remainers take responsibility for your winging whining and scare monger tactics, they are bringing this country to its knees far faster than a no deal Brexit.
It is sad that any community should lose its main employer due to remains constantly moaning and not accepting they live in a democracy.
 

Sumo

War Hero
benefits in cold wet and windy Helenburg, or warm sunny pain with reduced benefits?
Good to see the over 60 benefits are OK, a few years back Spain weren't supporting aging expats, or am I confused with the gap of the E111 running out and reaching 60?
 

Levers_Aligned

War Hero
Moderator
Firstly, I am not in 'Little England' - I hate those type of places. I live off my RN pension and now my OAP.
So, to clarify, you're reaping the benefit of a UK based pension scheme whilst living in Spain (for whatever reason). You're also - one would believe - firmly insulated from any effects of Brexit. I can't see, for example, your way of life changing much even as a Spanish resident. I was over there last week speaking to my sister and brother in law and they tell me that what happens in the UK won't affect them at all, although they worry about their families, of course.

Spain as a benevolent social state is a non starter. I am Spanish resident, not a Spanish citizen, though I now qualify to become one if I so wish. Should I fall on hard times here it would be 'tough titty' and I'd get NOTHING. No help, no cash, no temporary home.
But you have two pensions coming in. Why would you fall on hard times? And if you did, would you not return to the UK?

Spanish citizen has a baby - money given by Government NIL. However if twins, they do get a one off payment of something silly like 120 euros.
Not sure what this has to do with the thread.

Spanish citizen loses job? Very low benefits for 6 months?
Are you asking me a question there? What do UK citizens get when they lose their job?

Spanish NHS is brilliant and EVERYONE over 60 qualifies.
Great. Ours is good too. Everyone qualifies. From birth to death. What does this have to do with Brexit?

No OAP bus passes..........
And?

Until recently, if a boat load of migrants washed up on a beach (which they do with monotonous regularity) they used to be shipped straight back across the water. The EU stopped this.
BINGO! Immigration! Why did the EU stop it? Were the migrants in danger? Let me pose you a philosophical question here. You are the head of state for Sonarland and a boatload of them there dirty, unwashed benefit scroungers rock up on your shore. You send them packing ... women, kids and all. They have zero food and water and 50% of them die, just off your shore. Could you live with this?

Why do you not agree with the FACT that all 'immigrants' should seek asylum in the first EU country in which they land? Is it possibly because there are no benefits (pun intended) to be had by declaring in Spain, Italy or Greece?
I don't know about 'FACT', as much as 'policy'. Yes, I agree they should seek and be considered for asylum in that first country. I've never disagreed with it and it is upheld by EU law. But are you alluding that migrants traverse Europe to Britain to simply reap the rewards of benefits offered with no questions asked? maybe you should take a trip to some of the migrant detention centres we have in the UK whereby several hundred await deportation because their applications have failed. Maybe you should understand that the UK isn't a signatory to Schengen and actively seeks to repel illegal immigration. Note 'illegal'. So it's not lawful for them to rock up and certainly, if they are here illegally (and their asylum case isn't verified and accepted) they'll have a right ******* job claiming benefits, won't they?

Besides. Why are you bothered? You live in Spain.

Back in the UK I could now be obtaining all sorts of benefits, especially if I arrived in an inflatable boat rather than a car ferry.
Give it a go, why don't you?

No doubt there will be a long diatribe highlighting and discussing all points in my post - fine. But you are coming across as a real mouth frother over all this - take a deep breath and relax!
No doubt you'll get a reasoned, rational challenge to your assumptions and claims, more like. And who is frothing at what here? You seem to be dead cross that in a country you don't live in we are seemingly rolling out the carpet to dirty forriners, whereas you ... ahem ... are having the carpet laid out to you ... in a country not of your birth.

Irony doesn't even touch it.

levers
 

Levers_Aligned

War Hero
Moderator
Read what @Exprop said the uncertainty of Brexit, caused mainly by the politician's indecisions, and remain voters scare mongering.
No it's not. They are considering leaving because they fear the market for UK built vehicles will deplete in light of trade restrictions an tariffs, brought about by our exit from the European Union. I haven't seen anything anywhere where they have cited 'politician's indecisions, and remain voters scare mongering' (typo left in).

if all accepted we live in a democracy and stop crying over the result and focus on the way forward this level of uncertainty would not be there, so remainers take responsibility for your winging whining and scare monger tactics, they are bringing this country to its knees far faster than a no deal Brexit.
Hang on. Let me refresh for you. I accept the result of the referendum. It is wrong, in my opinion, and may who voted leave did so without much thought of outcomes and did so because of 'gut feeling' rather than long term, strategic aims. For further information, I am firmly against a second referendum, and feel, like you, we should just get the **** on with it and work toward softening the impact. Hope that has gone in and settled in your rather limited comprehension.

You have precious little evidence of the effects of 'remainer whinging', save for the alarming level of mardy arsed frustration that people in responsible positions are questioning the rationale when ranged against clear financial evidence that say, GDP will reduce one we are out. This is one of many effects of the outcome you want, but don't much care to address. So it's maybe a good job we do have clever people to put the brakes on and slow up the great leap into the unknown. I note you have provided zero-point-zero evidence of how better off the country will be, save for that daft 'rebate' figure which as we all know now, is not a practical figure to measure by given the trade deals we still haven't set up and the loss in EU/UK trade balance due to tariffs.

It is sad that any community should lose its main employer due to remains constantly moaning and not accepting they live in a democracy.
In your world then, Nissan is shutting because people are moaning about leaving the EU? That's it? **** me, the clever economic strategists and Nissan's own business managers need your phone number, PDQ. Maybe you have the answers.

Go and find someone to sort out your lack of ability to co-ordinate your internet tagging though. Your response, characteristically intelligible, is compounded by the fact that you and computers aren't really compatible, are they? Maybe I can call someone up from my WO desk and order some help?

levers
 

Sumo

War Hero
No it's not. They are considering leaving because they fear the market for UK built vehicles will deplete in light of trade restrictions an tariffs, brought about by our exit from the European Union. I haven't seen anything anywhere where they have cited 'politician's indecisions, and remain voters scare mongering' (typo left in).



Hang on. Let me refresh for you. I accept the result of the referendum. It is wrong, in my opinion, and may who voted leave did so without much thought of outcomes and did so because of 'gut feeling' rather than long term, strategic aims. For further information, I am firmly against a second referendum, and feel, like you, we should just get the **** on with it and work toward softening the impact. Hope that has gone in and settled in your rather limited comprehension.

You have precious little evidence of the effects of 'remainer whinging', save for the alarming level of mardy arsed frustration that people in responsible positions are questioning the rationale when ranged against clear financial evidence that say, GDP will reduce one we are out. This is one of many effects of the outcome you want, but don't much care to address. So it's maybe a good job we do have clever people to put the brakes on and slow up the great leap into the unknown. I note you have provided zero-point-zero evidence of how better off the country will be, save for that daft 'rebate' figure which as we all know now, is not a practical figure to measure by given the trade deals we still haven't set up and the loss in EU/UK trade balance due to tariffs.



In your world then, Nissan is shutting because people are moaning about leaving the EU? That's it? **** me, the clever economic strategists and Nissan's own business managers need your phone number, PDQ. Maybe you have the answers.

Go and find someone to sort out your lack of ability to co-ordinate your internet tagging though. Your response, characteristically intelligible, is compounded by the fact that you and computers aren't really compatible, are they? Maybe I can call someone up from my WO desk and order some help?

levers
:D be happy
 
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