EU, NO-DEAL BREXIT BACKSTOP...and all that

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Exprop

Lantern Swinger
So, is that a 'leave' or a 'remain' from you?
Personally I would prefer to remain. I cannot see any real advantage to be gained from leaving and some very real dangers, particularly with a 'hard' deal.

However, I recognise the legitimacy of the referendum and I accept its result that we should leave. At the time of the referendum it seemed that this would probably take the form of EEA membership roughly parallel to that operated by Norway. We would accept free movement and a single market in return for being outside the EU in terms of some of its political aims.

Things changed with Mrs May's declaration (prompted by Nick Timothy) that we should have 'red lines' with regard to the customs union and the single market and should activate article 50 even before we had started to negotiate a withdrawal agreement. With that act she abandoned any hope of a cross-parliamentary alliance for an agreement which would satisfy leavers and be reluctantly accepted by remainers. She became beholden to the awkward squard of arch-sceptics who had caused such problems for Major and Cameron before her. Only by winning them over could she hope to gain a parliamentary majority. It was they who have caused most of the difficulties with finding an acceptable withdrawal agreement together with a nationalist press (Daily Telegraph/Daily Express/Daily Mail/The Sun, etc.) who have egged them on.

If, even at this late stage, it is possible to negotiate and gain parliamentary approval for a withdrawal agreement which allows us to maintain some form of trading relationship with the EU while we negotiate for the longer term I would be content to accept it.

I take your question to mean do I accept leaving and that is the spirit in which I answer it however I should also clarify that answer. I do not accept that there is a parliamentary or democratic mandate for a no deal exit from the EU and believe that it would be a constitutional outrage for a Britsh Prime MInister to engineer such an exit without an explicit mandate at least from parliament if not from a plebiscite. If this happens, the Conservative party will probably not be forgiven for at least a generation.

I hope that answers your question. How do you answer it yourself?
 
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SONAR-BENDER

War Hero
Exprop - my comment was intended as tongue in cheek, as in are you enjoying sitting on that fence! Or similar! As Sumo says, I live in Spain now, but I hate the Brussels autocracy with a deeply held vengeance!


As Nelson said, 'You should hate the French (and in this case the others!) as you Hate the Devil'

I hope the UK gets out as planned at the end of October, because then all the PIG countries, Portugal, Italy and Greece will slap in their chits faster than a fast thing, then the whole sorry mess will implode. The Germans are not happy with Mutty, so there could be fun there too.

However, reading all the doom and gloom about what is GOING to happen just makes me laugh! Best start stockpiling (add consumable of choice) as it will run out etc. There may be a blip, but in the end it will be like Millennium 2K night and we'll all just crack and THEN start to sort out the problems.

If I'm wrong, my gin is still 4 euros a bottle.........!
 

slim

War Hero
I voted to leave but in all honesty I would love to remain in a REFORMED EU.
However as the EU refuse to be reformed I want to FeckOfski
 

Ballistic

War Hero
Meanwhile, back to the first post in this thread:
Any solution to the Irish border question?

It does seem to be overshadowed quite a bit by such things as trade and immigration but it's really, really not to be dismissed.
 
Exprop - my comment was intended as tongue in cheek, as in are you enjoying sitting on that fence! Or similar! As Sumo says, I live in Spain now, but I hate the Brussels autocracy with a deeply held vengeance!
I take it the UK leaving the EU will affect you in no way whatsoever then, being as you reside overseas?

As Nelson said, 'You should hate the French (and in this case the others!) as you Hate the Devil'
Well, you can't beat paraphrasing an 18th Century Admiral out of context (and with added bits too) to crystalise some or other xenophobic groundswell with no underpinning evidence, can you.

I hope the UK gets out as planned at the end of October, because then all the PIG countries, Portugal, Italy and Greece will slap in their chits faster than a fast thing, then the whole sorry mess will implode. The Germans are not happy with Mutty, so there could be fun there too.
So the collapse of the European economic framework is your desired endstate, huh? You do understand what happened last time Europe was so fragmented, don't you? And funnily enough (because you like a laugh) there's no fascistic despot sat in Germany (so far, anyway) brought there by racist rabble rousing to bring grim balance to a similar tyranny over in Mother Russia.

However, reading all the doom and gloom about what is GOING to happen just makes me laugh! Best start stockpiling (add consumable of choice) as it will run out etc. There may be a blip, but in the end it will be like Millennium 2K night and we'll all just crack and THEN start to sort out the problems.
In one paragraph you've said what is GOING to happen makes you laugh, and then give us a download about what you reckon is GOING to happen. Sans evidence. Which part of it do you want? I mean, a groundless panic about software is EXACTLY like the dead complex extraction of a nation from a major economic and political alliance, isn't it? Piece of piss. Just 'crack' ('on' I assume you mean) and 'sort out the problems'.

It's nice you admit there will be problems, mind. We've been ******* ace at that for the past three years.

If I'm wrong, my gin is still 4 euros a bottle.........!
In a ******* nutshell, readers.

levers
 
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Nice 'facts'.

Now tell us - how does any of that benefit the UK? Tell us all, waiting patiently, better off financially we will be individually given you say (for example) the EU guarantees Free Trade amongst member states and the WTO ensures trade flows as smoothly, predictably and freely as possible. How much better - pounds and pence - will each UK national be better of under WTO than in the EU? You must know, because that table isn't about 'hype', 'spin' and 'lies', is it?

Tell us.

levers
 
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slim

War Hero
Like many on here I would love to be a member of a REFORMED EU
However for yewrs we have tried to reform it from the inside with no avail.
That is why I voted leave.
The EU is an inneficient corrupt organisation which will never change until it callapses and a new organisation put in its place.
Before anyone else says it, the UK politicol situation also has more than its share of corruption in politics.
However let us leave and then start to put our own House(s) in order
 
What 'true fact' is that then?

Do you have any evidence whatsoever that say, Caroline Lucas or Dennis Skinner is in any way more corrupt than say, Jacob Rees-Mogg (who has protectively shifted portions of his family fortune (him = about £150m alone) into overseas trusts just in case the policies he supports fucks the economy irreparably, and has massive interest in the tobacco, mining, oil and gas sectors through the Somerset Group and his propensity to filibuster most everything in the lower house he is against, rather than use parliamentary debate techniques to uphold democracy)

Yeah. Dead corrupt.

levers
 
Like many on here I would love to be a member of a REFORMED EU
However for yewrs we have tried to reform it from the inside with no avail.
What 'avail' would that be? Can you tell us what reforms you think the UK has been pressing to change within the EU, how these reforms have financially harmed the UK and how, in a Brexited world, the UK will be better off? Real figures and facts now. Not some cut and paste .jpg from some alt-right website. Stuff you know and you have researched. Because it's you who made the in/out choice. I'd like to think you based that on evidence, not xenophobic gut-feeling. Because ...

That is why I voted leave.
Oh. There's more ...

The EU is an inneficient corrupt organisation which will never change until it callapses and a new organisation put in its place.
I don't disagree it is inefficient and corrupt. Point me out a huge organisation which isn't. But the only way you'll change it, is being part of it. Being outside of it changes nothing. And if it collapses, what do you reckon the end result will be, especially on the UK?

Before anyone else says it, the UK politicol situation also has more than its share of corruption in politics.
However let us leave and then start to put our own House(s) in order
How do you reckon that will work then, slim? I mean, do you think our political system is in any way less inflexible, rigid and opposed to reform than say, the EU? Given your yardstick, the only way to get reform is via collapse. So, you'd advocate a total collapse of the UKs own political system to get some or other (as yet undefined) outcome? What outcome? We have a constitutional monarchy at the moment. Universal suffrage, multiparty politics, sovereignty in the hands of the population - via a parliament they themselves elect, upheld by a monarch whose face appears on our currency. Our own NHS, tax, armed forces, executive, legal framework and ability to do whatever the **** we want within statute. What 'house' do you want putting in order?

levers
 
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