Entry selection into the Royal Navy as an Officer.

#62
I didnt pass the OASC but it was taken before i went to Uni. I joined a University Air Squadron. Overall the UAS was great but there was an element of rich daddy private schooling syndrome.
After Uni (2.1 in Aero Eng.) I applied as Aircrew in the Navy as they were taking on more pilots. I didnt pass the medical (eyesight problems) for aircrew so accepted AE instead.
Looking back im glad I chose the Navy, as AE in the RN looks so much better then AE in the Crabs.
I start BRNC in Sept. I have to say going to Uni did make passing AIB so much easier, you have more life,leadership and teamwork experience to talk about in the interview. On my board were 4 aircrew, 3 passed, the one who didnt was applying straight from A-levels. Uni definitely made the selection easier for me.
THATS NOT TO SAY A UNI EDUCATION IS NECESSARY TO PASS, I JUST FEEL IT MAKES IT EASIER.
 

Jim30

Lantern Swinger
#63
Blimey, quite a few balanced chips on display here.

My own thoughts are that firstly, while everyone going to RALEIGH has a lovely meritocratic ring to it, it would IMHO destroy recruiting for the RN. The RN today currently has need of 3 distinct sub groups - the first are the young, not necesarily well qualified but open to training guys, that will become junior ratings. The next are the potential tiffs who need to have some serious brains on them - these guys will shortly be forming the middle management of the workforce. Finally they need leaders and managers in the form of Officers. The Officer pool is overwhelmingly drawn from graduates, many of whom have significant debts from education, have a lot of drive and an expectation that they will be in positions of influence in the near future. If you turn and tell them that they will have to join as a rating, spend minimum 6 months working up with no gurantee that they will be selected for AIB, then I'd suggest 95% of them will say 'no thanks' and go to the nice corporate job offer instead, which also has time 'on the floor' but which has a recognised development model. Its not the stigma or desire not to be with the ratings, its a common sense perception that why sign up for a job which you are patently over qualified to do and which if you don't get selected for officer, means you're stuck for your return of service not gaining the essential skills and leadership experience that your peers are getting in civvy street.

Having sat & passed an AIB, then returned a few years later as an observer, (when I was a CW officer determined to get as many of my lads through the AIB as possible), I am firmly convinced that it is one of the fairest forms of assessment out there. Despite seeing plenty of fools going for it, and knowing they were patently unsuitable for service, the board gave them EVERY chance of demonstrating hidden talents, hidden skills and potential to see if there was leadership potential there. THe board is not looking for an instant Seaman Officer, its looking for someone who possesses the POTENTIAL to be trained into one. It does a first rate job of weeding out a lot of the real Ruperts before they get to BRNC.

As for joint training, I think its a really bad idea. A few years ago they tried joint training at BRNC during the reign of Cdre Clare, and the results were not inspiring. If you're a new entry in RALEIGH, you spend your first few weeks being taught that officers are in charge, know what the plan is and that they can keep their heads when all others are losing theirs (provided the Chief lets them of course). Then imagine you're on the moors with a group of Young Officers not much older than yourself - you see them making mistakes, see them getting tired and stressed and suddenly you start questioining their ability to lead. (This actually happened BTW). Its really important to get YO's to learn leadership away from ratings, precisely so that they can make their mistakes, get it all wrong and then get better in private - otherwise faith in the ability of the Officer Corps to deliver real leadership under pressure might be tested. I'm all for the idea of joint training later on - for example 3rd term BRNC leading short expeds on RALEIGH during their Dartmoor phase, but otherwise its a big no no.

Finally from a timing perspective, the average age of new officers is creeping up, to around 24/25. This means that they have less time to train before wanting to settle down, so if you add in a minimum year of Rating training before Dartmouth, it will mean that they'll be 27/28 before their first sea job - which is definitely not ideal.
 
#64
silverfox said:
slim said:
Looks like things have changed somewhat in the 21 years since my retirement from the RN. I like the Gloucester way of splitting up between messdecks, not so sure about having a separate messdeck. I must admit that I would liked to have heard more input from non officers on this subject though.
Well goodness me, things HAVE moved on in the past 21 years - as everyone has been trying to tell you!! I'll pass your approval about messdecks to the Admiralty Board as I know there has been a few sleepless nights amongst them. And as to the non-officer contributions? Well maybe its because you are slightly isolated in your views and everyone else realises how well integrated ships companies are and that fact that during IST and Fleet Time, SRs and JRs have a tremendous and lasting opportunity to influence the way a YO thinks - one that is unique amongst the other services.
To be honest SF things started changing in a big way with the Murray scheme in 1960. The 18 year old entry quite a high proportion of grammar school candidates, many of whom got through AIB with no problems at all, and the SL entry accepting people with 5 O levels as well, most of whom were not public school. If you add to that the growing SD list of the time and the very active search for both SD candidates and just as importantly Upper Yardmen for the G Spot and St Vincent the RN was working very hard to democratise the Wardroom.

Yes there were prats in the wardroom, and there also were prats on the Chies mess and the POs mess. (I once had to have a PO disrated, and there was as much pressure from the SRs mess for that as from anywhere else).

I must admit I still try and use some of the very basic man management tools taught to us at Divisional School by the senior rate there today some 40 years on.

I must say if Slims only experience of the wardroom was a bunch of Rodneys he must have picked some pretty unique wardrooms.

Peter
 
#65
AE_Officer: "THATS NOT TO SAY A UNI EDUCATION IS NECESSARY TO PASS, I JUST FEEL IT MAKES IT EASIER"

- quite right and even today there will be a few admirals who dont have degrees because in a society long, long ago it wasnt necessary to have a degree to get to the top in most walks of life, standfast the medical and some specialist engineering professions. Today, in the mad, mad world TB has created, the aim is for 50% of people to go to uni by 2010 (and pay for it themselves. So 50% off the dole for three years and at their own cost - pretty clever, really and of course it totally defeats what universities existed for originally - academic scholarship, which is rather elitist and so not New Labour. This also means to get a good job you now ideally will have a Masters degree.

Naval officers do not, by and large, need degrees - they need to be properly trained and the Murray scheme achieved that very well. The reason almost all now join with degrees lies in societal pressures not the RN. What it does mean is we have lost the early years in careers (very desirable if not vital in developing experience in seaman officers, seaman's eye etc) because many are now in their mid-20s when they join.

Ideally we would take the majority from A-level, repeat the Murray scheme (or something close to it), award a recognisable management degree after three years and get them to sea at age 21 with a ten year contract in return for a free education and no debt but I bet we cannot afford that................ and yet that seems to work quite well in OZ at the Australian Defence Force Academy (ADFA).
 
#66
F169 said:
AE_Officer: "THATS NOT TO SAY A UNI EDUCATION IS NECESSARY TO PASS, I JUST FEEL IT MAKES IT EASIER"

- quite right and even today there will be a few admirals who dont have degrees because in a society long, long ago it wasnt necessary to have a degree to get to the top in most walks of life, standfast the medical and some specialist engineering professions. Today, in the mad, mad world TB has created, the aim is for 50% of people to go to uni by 2010 (and pay for it themselves. So 50% off the dole for three years and at their own cost - pretty clever, really and of course it totally defeats what universities existed for originally - academic scholarship, which is rather elitist and so not New Labour. This also means to get a good job you now ideally will have a Masters degree.

Naval officers do not, by and large, need degrees - they need to be properly trained and the Murray scheme achieved that very well. The reason almost all now join with degrees lies in societal pressures not the RN. What it does mean is we have lost the early years in careers (very desirable if not vital in developing experience in seaman officers, seaman's eye etc) because many are now in their mid-20s when they join.

Ideally we would take the majority from A-level, repeat the Murray scheme (or something close to it), award a recognisable management degree after three years and get them to sea at age 21 with a ten year contract in return for a free education and no debt but I bet we cannot afford that................ and yet that seems to work quite well in OZ at the Australian Defence Force Academy (ADFA).
I agree, I am sure that with a bit of sensible work the Moray scheme could be rejigged to 3 years without losing too much, start some of the academic stuuf in year one and telescope years 2, 3, & 4 into two years, especially as much of the 4th year would be Warfare rather than split in all the specification as it used to be. You could probably do an equivalent 4th year for the submariners alone which included their training class so they got to sea at the same time as their target compatriots.
 
#67
Jim30, pretty much my thoughts exactly.

F169 said:
Naval officers do not, by and large, need degrees ... What it does mean is we have lost the early years in careers (very desirable if not vital in developing experience in seaman officers, seaman's eye etc) because many are now in their mid-20s when they join.
I would appear to be the exception to the rule then, as I'm starting on January 2nd without a degree. I applied for university, but everything I was told (by ex-RN, current RN and otherwise) led straight to your second point (in what I've quoted). Unless the degree was of specific use to me, it wasn't worth missing out on three exta/early years in the fleet gaining experience. So I went with the sensible option and had the AIB stop considering me for a bursary and put me on the NCE list.
 
#68
im joinhing with no degree, 4 a's at a level. In high quality acedemic subjects. I think they are worth 10 x more than a degree in sociology. Whether those at the top agree is a different matter.

i see it this way, if i leave the navy after 12 years, i'll be 30, possibly with an open university degree (aka toilet roll) if not, no worries. i think if i went for a civilian job against somebody with a degree from a met university i hope/wish that those extra 4 years in the navy will weigh much more than 4 years i would of "wasted" obtaining a degree
 

Seadog

War Hero
Moderator
#69
And engineers?! That's the one branch that doesn't need any officers at all - the CPOs and WOs do all the work and have all the knowledge.

The engineering branch (ME) still has a requirement for Chartered Engineers. CEng can be done without a degree but it is just as hard. Moreover, a degree (MEng/MSc now ) isn't a guarantee of CEng. At that level, an engineer's professional status is deemed to warrant two and a half status. Quite right too. It is possible to get to Lt Cdr without being Chartered but you'd be expected to make Incorporated Engineer. IEng also requires degree (BEng/BSc) level engineering science now but it is possible to get that with a professional review. You'll still need to be maths savvy. Some Chiefs and WOs crack it. Are they jealous of the Wardroom? Never sensed it.

Graduate entry ME RN Officers have to do all the ME Ratings' Operator qualifications on the SEMC course. Engineering professionals recognise and need each other's competences and respect them.

The RN may get by without Officers but you'd still need engineers at their professional level. At that level, Officer status is as appropriate for engineers as it is for doctors. So..... the RN need Officers.
 
#70
Seadog said:
And engineers?! That's the one branch that doesn't need any officers at all - the CPOs and WOs do all the work and have all the knowledge.

The engineering branch (ME) still has a requirement for Chartered Engineers. CEng can be done without a degree but it is just as hard. Moreover, a degree (MEng/MSc now ) isn't a guarantee of CEng. At that level, an engineer's professional status is deemed to warrant two and a half status. Quite right too. It is possible to get to Lt Cdr without being Chartered but you'd be expected to make Incorporated Engineer. IEng also requires degree (BEng/BSc) level engineering science now but it is possible to get that with a professional review. You'll still need to be maths savvy. Some Chiefs and WOs crack it. Are they jealous of the Wardroom? Never sensed it.

Graduate entry ME RN Officers have to do all the ME Ratings' Operator qualifications on the SEMC course. Engineering professionals recognise and need each other's competences and respect them.

The RN may get by without Officers but you'd still need engineers at their professional level. At that level, Officer status is as appropriate for engineers as it is for doctors. So..... the RN need Officers.
Things may have changed since my career abandonment 21 years ago. However during my time officers could generally be easilly placed in certain boxes.

Box 1
Fleet air arm aircrew officer.
Happy to be a member of the worlds most elite flying club. Liked to wear the uniform and live the high life. Usually spotted out of hours driving a performance sports car. Being an RN officer not really that important, but the wings certainly helped with pulling the totty.

Box 2
The Medical profession
Consisting of doctors and dentists well qualified and generally happy with life in the service. Though many would have not been in the service if their daddies had owned half of Hampshire and been able to provide the funds for private practises.

Box 3
The Engineering specialists
Mainly educated degree engineers (from either university or Manadon) Most were approachable and many well respected by their subordinates. A few were of the opinion that they were gods gift to engineering but after the senior rates on their sections allowed them to make a few f*ckups they soon learned.

Box 4
The seamen officers (the executive branch)
Many ex public school boys took this route, daddy had money but they could still only manage to attain a limited education. It was the civil service or the armed forces, and the navy did have the prettiest uniform, daddy even bought their sword. For me this was the officer to be wary of, loved to hear the sound of his own voice and could be heard bollocking junior rates from three decks away. Could also be seen toadying to his superiors.

Box 5
The SD officer.
The SD system produced many good officers and more than a few bast*ds. This officer was generally fair and firm often dishing out his own punishment (extra work etcetera) for minor offences. He was difficult to bullshit as he had done the same thing many years before.

Box 6
All Officers
Of course officers were not confined to their boxes and many escaped to box 6. These officers were the gentlemen of the service who understood and respected their men. They performed and led well and were generally firm and fair. This officer had gained the respect of his subordinates who worked well for him.
To be honest box six was the largest box and contained 80% of the officers.
 
#71
All Regulating Staff Officers came up from the lower deck and quite rightly so. We are now privileged to boast 2 Commanders, one up at the new Defence Police College and one in the appointment of Provost Marshal (Navy).
 
#72
slim said:
Seadog said:
And engineers?! That's the one branch that doesn't need any officers at all - the CPOs and WOs do all the work and have all the knowledge.

The engineering branch (ME) still has a requirement for Chartered Engineers. CEng can be done without a degree but it is just as hard. Moreover, a degree (MEng/MSc now ) isn't a guarantee of CEng. At that level, an engineer's professional status is deemed to warrant two and a half status. Quite right too. It is possible to get to Lt Cdr without being Chartered but you'd be expected to make Incorporated Engineer. IEng also requires degree (BEng/BSc) level engineering science now but it is possible to get that with a professional review. You'll still need to be maths savvy. Some Chiefs and WOs crack it. Are they jealous of the Wardroom? Never sensed it.

Graduate entry ME RN Officers have to do all the ME Ratings' Operator qualifications on the SEMC course. Engineering professionals recognise and need each other's competences and respect them.

The RN may get by without Officers but you'd still need engineers at their professional level. At that level, Officer status is as appropriate for engineers as it is for doctors. So..... the RN need Officers.
Things may have changed since my career abandonment 21 years ago. However during my time officers could generally be easilly placed in certain boxes.

Box 1
Fleet air arm aircrew officer.
Happy to be a member of the worlds most elite flying club. Liked to wear the uniform and live the high life. Usually spotted out of hours driving a performance sports car. Being an RN officer not really that important, but the wings certainly helped with pulling the totty.

Box 2
The Medical profession
Consisting of doctors and dentists well qualified and generally happy with life in the service. Though many would have not been in the service if their daddies had owned half of Hampshire and been able to provide the funds for private practises.

Box 3
The Engineering specialists
Mainly educated degree engineers (from either university or Manadon) Most were approachable and many well respected by their subordinates. A few were of the opinion that they were gods gift to engineering but after the senior rates on their sections allowed them to make a few f*ckups they soon learned.

Box 4
The seamen officers (the executive branch)
Many ex public school boys took this route, daddy had money but they could still only manage to attain a limited education. It was the civil service or the armed forces, and the navy did have the prettiest uniform, daddy even bought their sword. For me this was the officer to be wary of, loved to hear the sound of his own voice and could be heard bollocking junior rates from three decks away. Could also be seen toadying to his superiors.

Box 5
The SD officer.
The SD system produced many good officers and more than a few bast*ds. This officer was generally fair and firm often dishing out his own punishment (extra work etcetera) for minor offences. He was difficult to bullshit as he had done the same thing many years before.

Box 6
All Officers
Of course officers were not confined to their boxes and many escaped to box 6. These officers were the gentlemen of the service who understood and respected their men. They performed and led well and were generally firm and fair. This officer had gained the respect of his subordinates who worked well for him.
To be honest box six was the largest box and contained 80% of the officers.
Very funny but a load of Sh1t!
 

Seadog

War Hero
Moderator
#74
Slim wrote
I served in Manchester ships flight on first commission we had two junior rates, one from Sheffield the other from Coventry they certainly had some stories to tell, including the well reported one about a boat full of officers refusing to take ratings because this is an officers boat!
Slim's signature
Never let the Truth Spoil a Good Dit
Indeed.

ohaire wrote
im joinhing with no degree, 4 a's at a level. In high quality acedemic subjects.
Is English one of them?
 
A

angrydoc

Guest
#75
I hate to resurrect this God-foresaken thread, but I can't let you get away with that crap about Medical Officers, Slim.

Private Practice is the realm of Consultants, and Consultants only. If you're not one of them, you can't do it - simple as that.

So entering private practice is nothing to do with how much land Daddy owns - it's to do with qualifications and time.

I hate to say it, but if the choice was private practice or the RN, there wouldn't be many medical officers...
 
#76
angrydoc said:
I hate to resurrect this God-foresaken thread, but I can't let you get away with that crap about Medical Officers, Slim.

Private Practice is the realm of Consultants, and Consultants only. If you're not one of them, you can't do it - simple as that.

So entering private practice is nothing to do with how much land Daddy owns - it's to do with qualifications and time.

I hate to say it, but if the choice was private practice or the RN, there wouldn't be many medical officers...
Just as well then Angrydoc. During my 22 years in the RN I had nothing but admiration for both doctors and dentists. Any treatment I required (which wasn't a lot) was always carried out quickly and professionally.
A couple of Docs I really admired were:

1. The PMO on Ark Royal (during the filming of sailor) one of the funniest men I ever met.

2. An Irish Lt MO at Yeovilton. I had an Hernia when I left the navy. BAe said I could not be a field engineer until it was repaired. I phoned Doc Leary on the Monday and explained the situation. Had a consultation with him on the Tuesday. Was admitted to Hasler on the Wednesday. Operation carried out on Thursday. Released Monday. Private treatment could not have been carried out at this speed.

Didn't mean to upset you Doc but the boxes are just a bit of fun. And of course I did state that 80% end up in box 6.
 
#77
Slim, i agree Captain Wigley and the MAA on the Manch first commission were first rate. Along with Hart Dyke of the Cov they were two officers who stood out from the pack. On the topic of getting selected candidate's for wardroom; back then at least I would say it came more down to luck if your divisional officer even knew that identifying ratings was part of his job title. How does a SLUT even know what to look for as they themselves are struggling to learn what it means to be an officer?
Served my five years and left it all behind.
 
#78
Silverfox, in fact I believe Slim was being kind, the truth was most of the SLUTS on that commission were dicks who could not lead a five aside match let alone sailors. An absolute waste of tax payers money. With less ships I suppose things must change and hopefully that is for the better. Oh and please don't think I am bitter and just want to get back at the "nasty officers". I sit here with a multi million dollar bank account and a Doctorate degree loving every moment. I sit at the Rag whenever I am in London quite content that I left as an AB.
 
#80
Of the rest, 85% of new direct entry officers are graduates, who (by definition) are the brightest of their generation.
Since when does having a degree make you 'by definition' the brightest of your generation? Especially in the current climate of 'everyone going to University'. If you had said 'on average' or 'statistically' I might agree, but no way does having a degree 'define' you as being brighter. I have an IQ well above average but joined the RN without a degree as I chose earning money above further study at that time. I later did a full time degree course that gave me a decent degree; in no why did the degree certificate change my brightness or intelligence.
 

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