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Engineer Officer Training Management?

nosga

Newbie
I'm thinking about careers and wondered a few things about going down this path:
This - http://www.careers.royalnavy.mod.uk/pdf/L3-E-E(TM).pdf - says they enter at more senior rank than other officers. Anyone know what rank this is?
Also would I likely be at sea very often or is it less so (tbh im not bothered either way just a thought!)
Can't think of anything else at the moment im sure I will though. Thanks if anyone can help.
 
A

angrydoc

Guest
Don't get tied up on what will be on your shoulder. Worry about whether or not you want to do it.
 

Ninja_Stoker

War Hero
Moderator
I note that online publication is dated May 07.

Since then Training Management Officer maximum age on entry has been reduced from 34 to 30. (See below)

DIRECT ENTRY OFFICER
1. Minimum Age. Officer Entrants must be over 17 years old on the first day of the
month of entry to BRNC or CTCRM.
2. Maximum Age. Upper age limits for Officer Entrants are dependant on specialisation:
a. Warfare and Aircrew. Must be under the age of 26 on the first day of the month
of entry to BRNC.
b. Logistics Officers Must be under the age of 32 on the first day of the month of
entry to BRNC.
c. Royal Marine Officers. Must be under the age of 26 on the first day of the month
of entry to CTCRM.
d. Engineer Officers (AE, ME, WE). Must be under the age of 30 on the first day of
the month of entry to BRNC. Exceptionally, entrants up to the age of 34 may be
accepted into Service provided they have gained relevant industrial engineering
experience that would enhance their Naval engineering skills.
e. Engineer (Information Systems) Officers. Should normally be under the age of
30 on the first day of the month of entry to BRNC.
f. Engineer (Training Management) Officers. Should normally be under the age of 30 on the first day of the month of entry to BRNC.
g. Medical, Dental and Nursing Officers and Chaplains. As directed by relevant
Specialist Recruiter, however the following guidelines apply:
(1) Medical and Dental. Under 46 years of age if entrant requires Career
Professional Training. Under 55 if candidate holds Independent Fully Accredited
Practitioner status.
(2) Nursing. Under 39 years of age on entry.
(3) Chaplains. Under 39 years of age on entry


Rules regarding income, seniority & Rank on joining also changed last year, so it's worth checking with your ACLO for definitive advice.
 
E(TM) join as Lt - however going through BRNC it makes no difference, you are all treated the same. You go through the normal officer training process (4 phases at BRNC, 4 month fleet time and then fleet board) and then sit a 4 week "schoolie" course. Expect your first job to be in Collingwood or Sultan depending on what the appointer has available at the time.

If you're older than everyone else expect no dispensation on the phys, they just expect a greater level of maturity, since if you join at 34 you are old enough to be some of the other Officer Cadets' parents!

You have a lot of flexibility on what you can do in your naval career (course and appointer dependant) - some do the all arms course, some go on submarines and others become Fleet Education officers and jump about the fleet (a prize draft). They are mostly based at the training establishments (Raleigh, BRNC, Collingwood and Sultan), however there are occasional drafts in other establishments. You can also opt for all arms or NATO drafts when they come up.

The Lt rank means your starting salary is £35K, designed to attract people with industry experience into moving into the RN. For some it's a pay rise, for other's its a pay cut. One thing is clear, you don't join the RN for the money!

Needless to say, the E(TM) branch is focussed around the education of the RNs most valuable resource, it's people (Blooming heck! I've been brainwashed! I thought it was the wine cellar keys!) and is a small branch with only a few hundred on the books. Places at BRNC are, as a concequence, fairly limited, although if you have the grit and determination and a good AIB score, it's well worth persuing. One thing to note, however, that promotion prospects are not massive - E(TM)s mostly get to the rank of commander by the end of their careers (unless they jump after their 12)

The AFCOs can give you a little bit of info, however the appointer usually meets up with you before you join BRNC or the Fleet to get a measure of you.

I hope that covers it!

LHS
 

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
You may wish to get an opportunity to speak to an E(TM) before you sign on the line!

At their recent branch seminar they were presented with the vision for the branch future, in essence there really isn't one in the numbers/form that most people would have expected.

Far be it for me to say, but I strongly suspect there isn't career longevity in the branch, and as for Left/Right Hand's comments - the overwhelming majority struggle just to achieve Lt Cdr. Cdr (SO1) is for about 2-3 people per year and this is expected to diminish greatly over the next 2-5 years. Promotion above that is even more competitive.

I am sure an E(TM) will respond, or I shall prod one later today to get online.

WD
 

angry_mac

War Hero
The statement 'I want to be at sea very often' , just isnt going to happen if you join as an Engineering Officer. The option of Artificer is no longer there. You're exactly the kind of people the Navy miss out on seeing that they have got rid of the apprenticeships. All in all its what you want out of the Navy, if its travel, have a laugh join as an ET(ME)/(WE). If you are academically as good as your posts allude, you will be fast tracked and make Senior Rate in say 6 years, and you get an FDENG (use to be HND) Plus the option to go officer will always be there.
If you are more concerned with what is on your shoulders, then BRNC for you. Unfortunately Engineering Officers do very little engineering, shoreside their jobs may involve procurement programs/ trials teams/ general administrative tasks.
At sea they act as Divisional Officers to the Engineering Senior Rates, they QA the Engineering Department and act as advisors to the CO on their relevant sub department, and during Action/Emergency they take control of a repair party, assesing priorties and managing their manpower.
Oh the pay and pension as an officer are obviously better than the rating corps.
If you want to be an engineer and spend loads of time away, join as an ET, remember the option to go Officer is always there. You will shine and advance rapidly through the ranks if you show enthusiasm tempered with your intelligence.
Obviously if you want the status early and the great pay earlier join as an Officer.
Good luck mate.
 

Ninja_Stoker

War Hero
Moderator
left_handed_sailor said:
....If you're older than everyone else expect no dispensation on the phys, they just expect a greater level of maturity, since if you join at 34 you are old enough to be some of the other Officer Cadets' parents!...

I hope that covers it!

LHS


Ninja_Stoker said:
Since then Training Management Officer maximum age on entry has been reduced from 34 to 30. (See below)


f. Engineer (Training Management) Officers. Should normally be under the age of 30 on the first day of the month of entry to BRNC.


Rules regarding income, seniority & Rank on joining also changed last year, so it's worth checking with your ACLO for definitive advice.

"Testing Comms, Over..."
 
on"Should Normally" - it means that it's not unprecedented for someone joining at the age of 34. Anyway, I'm sure I've seen some headline in the Sun about a 12 yr old father.
 

Karma

War Hero
wave_dodger said:
You may wish to get an opportunity to speak to an E(TM) before you sign on the line!

At their recent branch seminar they were presented with the vision for the branch future, in essence there really isn't one in the numbers/form that most people would have expected.

Far be it for me to say, but I strongly suspect there isn't career longevity in the branch, and as for Left/Right Hand's comments - the overwhelming majority struggle just to achieve Lt Cdr. Cdr (SO1) is for about 2-3 people per year and this is expected to diminish greatly over the next 2-5 years. Promotion above that is even more competitive.

I'd reinforce WDs point and add that describing TMs as engineers is a bit of a misnomer. The branch appear to be positioning themselves in a Human Resource/ organisational development niche and are more reasonably aligned to Loggies in the secretarial field. I see that as a response to the threat over the future of the branch, perhaps typically of these kind of things the senior people are talking about a wither on the vine approach but very actively collecting responsibility and influence to secure their future. That's not a criticism, more an observation. I do see a need for the capability as OD is something that the RN is p!ss poor at.

As already pointed out, the early career is training delivery, moving into OD and training management later on.

I am sure an E(TM) will respond, or I shall prod one later today to get online.

Or just to wake up... It is after lunchtime now ;)
 

nosga

Newbie
Thanks for all these great replies I'm sure this has been more help than the limited information on the net!
As I said it was only one idea of mine the others being other areas of engineering / warfare.
If there is any E(TM) around who feels they could add something that would be wonderful (and of course anyone at all!!!) !
 

scabz

Lantern Swinger
Karma said:
...describing TMs as engineers is a bit of a misnomer.
Hmm....
Schoolies...with an unhealthy interest in the Defence Systems Approach to Training and a desire to build an empire on the CAPPS jobs that the other Branches don't have people to fill. :thumright:
 
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