Eastern European Immigration

Originally posted this in response to some comments in the "Closure of a Dockyard" thread, But thought I'd move it as it's not directly relevant to that debate...but is one worth having in its own right...

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Seawolf wrote:
safewalrus wrote:
we've bloody well surrendered already! Can't you feel the knife between your shoulder blades, curtesy of B'liar and company!

I think you might be right, we are becoming the minority. I did some work in Bognor Regis last year, of a population of about 45,000. Some 10.000 of them are eastern Europeans. And this is just 1 seaside town, just think what its like accross the UK.

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My views: Please don't make ignorant comments about topics you obviously don't know much about, other than from reading the red tops.

Yes, the recent immigration of especially Poles is probably the largest into the UK since the Hugenots; yes, in some specific areas they are driving down wages due to competition (not a bad thing if, like most of us, you are a consumer of such services as plumbing...); however in the vast majority of cases they are employed in jobs most Brits WON'T do (agricultural, cleaning, fish factories etc.).

So do you realise that without them, GB Plc would be more than a little the worse off - AND THIS INCLUDES DEFENCE BUDGETS WHICH WE ALL LIKE DRIPPING ABOUT SO MUCH!

And to prove it's not just my bleeding heart liberal views, here are some statistics independent of both my industry (financial services, so yes, I actually do know what I'm talking about) and also is independent of politicians and media of all colours.

Source is the National Institute of Economic and Social Research (http://www.niesr.ac.uk/pubs/searchdetailprint.php?PublicationID=1356):

• Immigration since 1997 has expanded UK GDP by about 3 per cent.

• In 2004/5 it contributed about 1 percentage point to the overall growth of 5.3 per cent in this period [edited by me to add: in pounds and pence this is about £13.7 BILLION net...].

• 11.6 per cent of 25-34 year olds in the UK have arrived since 1997

• Immigrants from Central and Eastern Europe in 2004 and 2005 have been younger than earlier immigrants and more likely to work in low-skill jobs [edited by me to add: and many of them have degrees but still work in menial jobs...don't know too many Brits who'd do that...].

• Unless immigrants make disproportionate demands on the welfare system, the structure of taxation means that they are net contributors to the rest of the economy [edited by me to add: in fact, as they are mostly under 35, single, and therefore have a lower-than-average utilisation of both the NHS and education budgets amongst others...and they pay all their council taxes and National Insurance contributions, they are funding...oh yes...our parents' and grandparents' pensions NOW!].

So there. Please look at the facts! And to contextualise, in this case specifically the defence budget - The UK Defence budget in 2005/06 is some £30.1Bn, or 2.2% if GDP (Source: MOD).

Do the maths, mateys....these guys have paid for, and are continuing to pay for, a rather chunky percentage of the defence budget...

I saw welcome to Blighty, and thank you!

 

What is the a person on RR talking sense about immigration. I am with you RNRAWBOD


Gentlemen it is all about supply and demand in a two way free market. There is nothing to stop you going to Poland or many other countries world wide and offering your skills at a price you wish to charge you may not get employed of course. Many do and can be found working in all regions of the world. I know of a husband and wife team who are teachers currently working in Moscow having been in the Mid East for five years.

But lets not whinge if a Pole will do the same job as you for two thirds the pay. No doubt if you were offered a job in the West Indies at a pay rate you thought was excellent you would not making enquiries to ensure you were not taking a job from a local cos they get paid more. GET REAL.

It is suprising that most of the critics of immigrants who demand controls come from the ranks of the right, BNP and Tories who also hold the torch for free trade. Either its free or controled but no, you want your cake and you wish to eat it.

BZ RNRAWBOD


Nutty

 

I would add to the above info that many of the Poles in particular are not coming here to settle permanently but to earn some cash to get them started in business etc back home in Poland. They work hard, seen in general to keep out of trouble, although one girl was foolish enough to get herself murderded (more about being a girl than being Polish).

Peter

 

The majority of immigrants from the Eastern Europe are here for a relatively short time and because of this many pay little or no tax. They do all however pay NI contributions. I agree that they are doing low paid work that our own citizens refuse to do. This is because the benefit system does not encourage those on benefits to accept low paid work. But this is another subject.
There are now many couples coming from the eastern block and bringing their children with them. In small towns (for example LLannelli Wales) these children are now forming 50% of school populations. Resources from the government have not been increased to help ease the financial burdon which is presently being shouldered by council tax payers. These immigrants tend to live in extremely cramped conditions and the amount per head of council tax paid is extremely low.
There is no way that these temporary residents are net in putters to our society.
The people who are benefiting are the gangmasters, the landlords and especially the people who employ them.

 

I do not disagree with local hot spots and schooling issues etc., however this is an allocation of resource issue for the government to sort out.

Which admittedly they ain't doing a terribly good job of at a local level on occasion. Which is centralised governments for you! Net impact however remains positive, as per the overall statistics.

 

Eastern europeans living and working in the UK is not a problem. Legoland Windsor and many other places could not function without them. As stated they are willing to work for lower rates of pay than many Brits and the ones I have had contact with seem to work harder. The question really is why with so many unemployed do we need to import labour?

 

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My views: Please don't make ignorant comments about topics you obviously don't know much about, other than from reading the red tops.

Yes, the recent immigration of especially Poles is probably the largest into the UK since the Hugenots; yes, in some specific areas they are driving down wages due to competition (not a bad thing if, like most of us, you are a consumer of such services as plumbing...); however in the vast majority of cases they are employed in jobs most Brits WON'T do (agricultural, cleaning, fish factories etc.).

So do you realise that without them, GB Plc would be more than a little the worse off - AND THIS INCLUDES DEFENCE BUDGETS WHICH WE ALL LIKE DRIPPING ABOUT SO MUCH!

And to prove it's not just my bleeding heart liberal views, here are some statistics independent of both my industry (financial services, so yes, I actually do know what I'm talking about) and also is independent of politicians and media of all colours.

Source is the National Institute of Economic and Social Research (http://www.niesr.ac.uk/pubs/searchdetailprint.php?PublicationID=1356):

• Immigration since 1997 has expanded UK GDP by about 3 per cent.

• In 2004/5 it contributed about 1 percentage point to the overall growth of 5.3 per cent in this period [edited by me to add: in pounds and pence this is about £13.7 BILLION net...].

• 11.6 per cent of 25-34 year olds in the UK have arrived since 1997

• Immigrants from Central and Eastern Europe in 2004 and 2005 have been younger than earlier immigrants and more likely to work in low-skill jobs [edited by me to add: and many of them have degrees but still work in menial jobs...don't know too many Brits who'd do that...].

• Unless immigrants make disproportionate demands on the welfare system, the structure of taxation means that they are net contributors to the rest of the economy [edited by me to add: in fact, as they are mostly under 35, single, and therefore have a lower-than-average utilisation of both the NHS and education budgets amongst others...and they pay all their council taxes and National Insurance contributions, they are funding...oh yes...our parents' and grandparents' pensions NOW!].

So there. Please look at the facts! And to contextualise, in this case specifically the defence budget - The UK Defence budget in 2005/06 is some £30.1Bn, or 2.2% if GDP (Source: MOD).

Do the maths, mateys....these guys have paid for, and are continuing to pay for, a rather chunky percentage of the defence budget...

I saw welcome to Blighty, and thank you![/quote]

Your talking tosh shipmate so wind your neck in

The majority of Poles, Slavs, Rumainians etc are working here to earn a fast buck they share houses with many others without paying any or little taxes and contributions. Because of the removal of the tax burdons they can accept the positions that other British Citizens can not afford to take. This is a false economy that is being proliferated by building sites and other users of predominantly manual workers paid cash in hand.
You don'f find them at Mcdonalds etc as these get paid under paye schemes.
They contibute a big fat zero to the defence budget

 

You will find it pretty difficult to get a job on a building site without either being registered for tax with the revenue or paying PAYE at emergency code level unless you have a paye coding. As a general rule the opportunities for being paid cash gross are getting less and less, not non existant I would agree. Most of the places I see Poles working are places wher Tax and NI will be collected by the employer.

If they are happy living 10 in a bed to save on rent and coucil tax good luck to them, aren't we all happy Maggies poll tax has gone, or are ypou suggesting it should be brought back?

Peter

 

Peter firstly the poll tax was a better approriation of dues 10 people generate more rubbish than 2 people, 10 people require more from the community than 2 people. it was however unpopular I can't argue with that.
Under the present government both local and national we are seeing taxes soar for everthing mostly by stealth and imaginative revenue idea's had the poll tax remained I for one think these would have been minimised.

As for cash in hand on building sites I had two jobs working for different construction companies windows and roofing both were paid cash in hand (thanks very much) and were on some lucrative sites in London. Why was this you ask because I could not get any benefits due to my pension but that would not even cover the mortgage so needed extra to live off.

 

thats all very well Hawkeye, but it doesn't really help me does it?

 

Sweeny if you want bears in Saints square Rotherham go out on a thursday night there are plenty of bare's (Ar**s)

 

I agree with Hawkeye on the Poll tax. This was a much fairer way of collecting taxes for local services. We are now back to the system where a couple living in a four bed roomed house which they worked and saved for pay more in council tax than three couples living in a three bedroomed house. The poll tax was a much fairer system.

 

No matter how fair or unfair the poll tax may have been, it is today a very dead duck. Even so if it had still been around today I am sure they would have found equally creative ways of hiking that up too.

I am sure that there are still ways to get paid cash in hand but they are far fewer than they were and the revenue are tightening up all the time. Round here many of the Poles are working in supermarkets, restaurants etc so are well caught up in the tax system

Peter

 

Peter I remember Fife well and enjoyed my time there. However all I heard was there were no jobs for the local population. Why is it that there now seems to be Poles working in supermarkets and restaurants? Are the local unemployment figures still extremely high?

 

Fife goes up and down as factories open and close, but most of the structural problems caused buy the end of heavy engineering and mining have gone now. I cant remeber the percentage but it is reasonable, and in common with many places many of the unemployed are either unemployable or are perhaps being more picky than some others. The Poles are working in short term jobs, low paid jobs and the like. After all they do not have the same outgoings as we would, and in general are only working here to raise cash they would not get at home, a bit like the builders who went to Germany in the 70s and 80s from here. There is plenty of construction work, you would be surprised how big Dunfermline has got.

Peter

 

As we have a percentage of the population who are either unemployable or picky when it comes to working to support ones self and family, is it time for long term benefit claimants in these categories were made to attend educational training sessions which hopefully should make them more employable. Failure to attend would be reflected in a reduction in benefits. Its my belief that a great many of the claimants also make up a large percentage of the black economy.

 

In reality a fair number of the unemployable will never be made employable, and it is probably better for all for them to be left on the edge of society, spending money on them is just good after bad. Equally as I could see myself as perhaps falling into the picky group if I was given the push by my current employer, just a few years to go to 65, no prospect of anything other than B&Q sweeper, I might be better off on the bru, after all there are all the non cash benefits that get added on.

Now the skivers in the black economy collecting dole and not paying tax that is something different and the return on attacking that group is well worththe effort.

Peter

 

Its my belief that many so called unemployable are able to carry out many tasks. B&Q sweeper being but one. In any community there is work which in needed, these are often menial tasks for which is difficult to employ people on a long term basis. Perhaps the time has come to revert to the old "On the Parish scheme" . This is where the parish looked after the interests of its sick and unemployed, however money was not given for nothing and had to be worked for. The tasks carries out by those on the parish had to be within the capability and ability of the claimant.

 

To be quite honest if I was a B&Q manager I suspect that I would not want a very high proportion of the weekly attendants at the Bru to enter my store as customers never mind as employees.



Peter

 

Unfortunately Peter there will always be a percentage of unemployable people. Even more depressing is that these are the ones with larger than average families who also grow up to be unemployable. Wouldn't hurt too much though to get them to work litter picking and graffiti removing.