DUDT on UGAS

Boots45

Midshipman
This isn't a question I need answered but I wanted to share my son's experience of discharge during phase 1 training. He joined as a school leaver on a degree apprenticeship to become a submarine engineer. He was discharged today after six weeks for a series of warnings, he reached tier 3 too quickly due to p- org and was backclassed once after weapons week. He passed his kit muster on the 3rd attempt, he was the only one out of seven having got up at 4 am to finish it off. He passed the weapons drills and all fitness tests. The last six weeks have been an emotional rollercoaster, especially the last few days after I heard warnings had escalated to 'the table'. I am absolutely gutted and I have never heard my son sound so broken and dejected- it is like a form of torture. My son always has been scatty and poorly organised, no doubt, but by the time he passed his kit muster at wk 4 he incurred no further p- org warnings. The final warning which brought him to a hearing was a lack of effort at PT apparently. He is a highly technically minded young man and naturally lacks good coordination, therefore he struggled to lead drill as apparently thats what a LH does. He is not even 18 and a half yet had been given a very generous salary and the expectation of him during training was that he would be better than the other ratings at all tasks. This was totally unrealistic, I believe he would've passed out if he'd been a rating. He was with men in their 20s with degrees and work experience. I dont blame anyone but I feel my son was set up to fail. It would take an exceptional 18 yr old to be a leading hand, my son says most of the UGAS recruits were older than him. Some of the others are training extended more than once but my son wasn't given this opportunity. This experience has been the most crushing blow, I've barely slept in a week as we thought he was destined for a wonderful career. He still wants to join the RN but will study for a degree first. He may reapply in future. I really hope no other family has to go through what we ve been through over the last few days. If he had been given another chance I'd have had to cut off all contact for the sake of my health.
 

Drakey

War Hero
There always two sides to every story. No one promised him a career. He has to be able to cope in a variety of areas and disciplines. It sounds like he wasn't able to act on and learn from his warnings. Whilst the UGAS scheme is very attractive for salary and responsibility, if he could not get through phase 1 it doesn't give the confidence that phase 2 and beyond will be any better. Maybe a time of reflection will enable him to see this and if he returns to the navy be successful at the second attempt.
 

soleil

War Hero
A very difficult situation, Boots.

Going back to education sounds like a very wise move. What would he like to do now?

You know, so many young people really blossom between the ages of 18 and 24. This wasn't his moment, but this doesn't mean that there isn't a good future for him. He may well be one of those young men who just needs an extra few years to mature; he'll come good, just support him now and encourage him. He'll get there.
 
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Boots45

Midshipman
Thanks for your responses, much appreciated. Yes you're right, he is young and immature, he came straight from school and he didn't have the org skills to cope with training at first. He thinks once he got the hang of it after he passed his KM he couldve managed his p- org. I just wish he'd been given another chance, he pleaded his case to the Commander but it seems as though he had already made his decision. He was given an 18 month discharge, he wants to reapply after uni in a few years. I hope the discharge makes clear to any future application that he was failing at LH standard. My son thinks he wouldve passed as a rating. Do you think he could mention this in future? I dont his prospective interviewer to think he's arrogant and not taking responsibility for his failings, he just couldn't manage at that level. Is it likely he ll be taken in again after DUDT? I think they suggested he PVRed at week 5 but he didn't want to leave. I never expected this to be such a nightmare, I'm lucky he accepted a place at uni
 

Drakey

War Hero
UGAS is a rating. Phase 1 is the same for everyone at Raleigh. Being on the UGAS scheme makes no difference at Raleigh.
 

Boots45

Midshipman
The PO I spoke to said he was to pass out as a leading hand and that he wasn't up to that standard although she admitted he had been putting in the effort. They obviously expected more from him in phase 1. The really galling thing is the protracted disciplinary process, it gave us all hope he would be backclassed as several others had been backclassed more than once ,so he heard. A senior officer from the submarines spent some time with him last night and suggested he say certain things to persuade the Commander. It gave us all a hope of reprieve but i don't think there was any. I'm sure he meant well but I wish he hadn't. The only thing extended was the pain for our family and obviously my son especially. No doubt this will still have been a valuable experience for him, the discipline it instils is wonderful. I just dont ever want to go through it again.
 

Maxpowers

Lantern Swinger
He failed beacause he didn't make standard expected of ALL ratings. Wise up and try again.. Also would pass out as a provisional LH, large difference. I appreciate it’s upsetting and not what you had hoped for but trying to say other people have it easier is wrong.
 

Boots45

Midshipman
I'm not convinced, I could be wrong but I suspect he'd have made it if he' d passed out as a rating. Hes an intelligent boy and doesn't have behavioural problems. At this stage he doesn't have what it takes to be a LH within weeks
 

WreckerL

War Hero
Super Moderator
@Boots45 , you keep saying he would have passed out as a rating, as others have said, UGAS is a rating, there's no difference in Phase 1 training between a UGAS Phase 1 or any other branch, whether it be engineering, chef or any other branch.
 

Boots45

Midshipman
Still not convinced, my son said his instructors were LHs, he feels as though they made training harder for him as he would ve been passing out at their level within 10 weeks, albeit provisionally. He thinks if he d been a rating he possibly couldve got through. I know you ll disagree but just saying what he told me.
 

WreckerL

War Hero
Super Moderator
I'm afraid your son has got it wrong, he was a rating and unless he became an officer later, he would always be a rating.

I left as a Chief, I was still a rating.

I very much doubt the LH instructors picked on him but as a potential fast track LH more would be expected of him.
 

Boots45

Midshipman
Well I'm no expert but the PO said he was to be a leading hand on passing out. Im not denying he was failing, he had a bad start and racked up too many warnings too quickly. Its gutting as I think if he been backclassed he couldve made it. Anyway, its over now. Hes going to study mechanical engineering
 

soleil

War Hero
Anyway, its over now. Hes going to study mechanical engineering
That sounds very positive. I'm wondering whether he might be able to join one of the University Royal Naval Units.

In which region is his University? Just the region is sufficient.
 

pompeyexpat

War Hero
At the risk of repeating some of what has been said;

The standards required at Raleigh of New Entrants is the same, regardless of future employment. There is no requirement for those UGAS entrants (or others such as Direct Entry Naval Police) to prove they're at a higher standard because they're going to be LHs very shortly after training. (UGAS pass out as probationary LH and then have more training and assessment before they're confirmed in the rank. Details are here - http://web.apps.royalnavy.r.mil.uk/fpgo/BRd_0001_4999/BRd_0003/BRd_3_1/brd_3_1_book.pdf - in Chap 74 para 7416). It's clear to those of us with experience of the RN, and Phase 1 training in particular, that he would be in the same position whatever his trade.

It's difficult to hear, and difficult to accept for both of you I'm sure, but the simple truth is that at this moment in time he isn't ready. That isn't to say that he won't be in the future, or - importantly - that he is a 'failure'. We all mature and develop at different rates. I think he needs to look at it as a learning experience, whether that's with an eye to joining the RN again at a later date or just as part of his ongoing, lifelong development.

I'm currently involved in the Phase 1 training of Young Officers. I've seen 18 year olds absolutely smash it and 25 year old university graduates stumble or fall at every hurdle. And I'm sitting here, as a Naval Officer, passing judgement on them. I'm also in my late 40's, having been in the Navy since I was 18. When I reflect back I was lucky to get to Raleigh at 18, I would never have been accepted as an Officer - and if I had I'd have lasted about 2 days. And there are plenty of people knocking about that knew me as an AB Mechanic when I was in my mid-20's that would be surprised I got as far as LH, let alone to the rank I now hold. But, eventually, I started to mature a bit more and realise my potential. There's no reason your son can't do the same.

If he's going to university to study engineering then I'd definitely echo Sol and recommend he looks at an URNU. With the exposure that brings, and the time spent at university, he might just find that in a few years time he's in a position to join again, and possibly as an Engineer Officer.
 

Boots45

Midshipman
Thanks for that. Can I ask you, if he reapplies in a few years will the DUDT go against him? His discharge was for p- org warnings x 3 and a values and standards for not putting in enough effort at PT. I think he will join the Uni Naval organisation. I wonder how many get back in again after DUDT. I know you say they're all treated equally but, like Warhero says, he was fast tracked so more was expected of him. Perhaps not much more though, I agree. I understand some of them spend time in Crean doing kit muster after failing 3 times. My son passed third time. He didn't have what it takes to lead drill and he says that's what he was expected to do as LH material so there was extra pressure on him. Anyway, I dont want to argue with you, I'm just telling you his impression of what it was like.
 

WreckerL

War Hero
Super Moderator
DUDT won't go against him but the recruiters will check as to why the DUDT occurred and if the reason has resolved itself.

I had to send lads home from Raleigh DUDT and a fair few came back within a year or so.
 

Boots45

Midshipman
Thank you, thats reassuring. Hopefully he ll return one day and make a success of it. I just wanted to let anyone else checking these boards for advice know what my experience is, for what its worth. Since he got accepted onto UGAS, him joining the Navy has consumed almost almost my every waking moment. It was such an amazing opportunity, too good to be true really. He had good and bad weeks which made it such a rollercoaster. After all the effort he made in applying over so many months and the joy in being accepted, for it to be over so soon is very painful, not only for his dad and me but his grandparents too. For anyone else out there suffering if their child is DUDT, youre not alone and I feel your pain
 

Stirlin

War Hero
Some do not even make training , after one night in the then New Entry Block at Raleigh a not so young guy was given a rail warrant home , us having met each other that first day there was much chatter after lights out ....and some lewd jokes.....said guy shouted SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP.....did not even have brekkie , he was gone.
 

soleil

War Hero
It isn't necessarily all over, though, Boots, it could well be that his career in the Navy is just going to start in a different way.

It's actually a good quality in an Officer in the Royal Navy to be able to face setbacks, deal with them and carry on. A career as an Officer and, in fact, the day to day job, is not about a constant stream of successes, all sorts of unexpected things happen. The Officers who thrive are the ones who know that there will always be bumps in the road and they draw on their inner resources to meet these challenges and succeed in getting past them.

Something which is true of a good many applicants who come to the AIB, the Board which interviews candidates for Officer, is that they have never had to really face a difficult challenge and when asked to give examples of challenges they have faced and overcome, it's difficult to know what to say.

In your son's case, he has the perfect example and if he can go to University now, joining the URNU if he can and really flourishing over the next few years, hopefully getting a good degree, he will be able to bring this experience with him and I would imagine that anyone meeting him at the AIB and hearing about what has happened now and that he then turned things around quite spectacularly will be very impressed.

One of the hardest things in parenthood is helping your children onwards when things have gone wrong.

I think that the most helpful thing you can do now is adopt the same 'can do' attitude which would be sought in an Officer and help your son towards the position where he feels the same way too. This period could be the best training to be an Officer he could have had.

Don't dwell on what has happened in your conversations with him, just look forward and talk to him about the positives.

Let's see whether we can put him in touch with one of the URNUs. That will give him something to look forward to. They are super fun, they meet regularly throughout the term and go to sea during the holidays. I think that their ships have been off the coast of Scotland this summer.

Tell us the region in which he is going to University and let's see whether we can put him in touch with the URNU now; a warm welcome from them might be just the boost he needs.
 
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