Dress Regs

#1
Info needed please. Is there a dress reg that allows a civilian civil serpent wearing an RN Warrant Officers uniform. The query has come from a neighbour who has come across this anomoly.
 

Ninja_Stoker

War Hero
Moderator
#2
Sounds very odd.

Dress Regs here, chapters 37-47: http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/News-an...ents/Naval Publications/BR 3/br3book/ch37.pdf

Can't see anyone wearing WO Badges, but maybe Royal Fleet Auxiliary Officers, Ratings and STO(N) Personnel Serving in RFAs, or Civilain Personnel embarked in maritime units afloat who are Band E, D, C, B and Senior Civil Service (SCS) Band 1 – 3 are apparently issued white coveralls, as worn by Officers & Warrant Officers as indicated in chapters 41 & 42

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/News-an...s/Naval Publications/BR 3/br3book/prelims.pdf
 

tiddlyoggy

War Hero
Book Reviewer
#3
Is he ex-RN? Reason I ask (and I don't actually know if it's true), is a mate told me that ex-SR's attending naval functions are entitled to wear mess undress still.
 
#4
Can't see anyone wearing WO Badges, but maybe Royal Fleet Auxiliary Officers, Ratings and STO(N) Personnel Serving in RFAs, or Civilain Personnel embarked in maritime units afloat who are Band E, D, C, B and Senior Civil Service (SCS) Band 1 – 3 are apparently issued white coveralls, as worn by Officers & Warrant Officers as indicated in chapters 41 & 42
RFA personnel wear RFA uniforms, but there is no Warrant Officer equivalent in the RFA or STO(N).
 
#8
The story as I know it is as follows. A Warrant Officer Royal Navy left the RN, he then got a job as a Civil Servant employed in Naval Establishment and he wears his WO's uniform. He has contact with both civilian and service people in his work environment. Questions have been asked about his authority over uniformed personnel. Does he come under any service disciplinary code?
 
G

guestm

Guest
#9
The story as I know it is as follows. A Warrant Officer Royal Navy left the RN, he then got a job as a Civil Servant employed in Naval Establishment and he wears his WO's uniform. He has contact with both civilian and service people in his work environment. Questions have been asked about his authority over uniformed personnel. Does he come under any service disciplinary code?
I have no idea, he sounds like a mega tool though.
 
#10
It sounds like he is in a Standing Officer Of the Day position, there are ex WO’s/CPO’s here filling those billets, they are even recruiting on the civil service web site for someone for the role. So in essence a civilian in Navy uniform.
 
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sgtpepperband

War Hero
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#11
From what you have described, this ex-WO is now a Civil Servant, so no, he is not entitled to wear the uniform, regardless of who is comes into contact with. He may have previously been in post as a member of the Armed Forces prior to leaving - as part of a transitional event, to prepare him for the role as a CS - at which point Senior Management could change the role to be carried out by (the now) Civil Servant. (For some strange reason, Senior Management may have "unofficially" allowed him to continue to wear uniform, but I cannot see how this would benefit the individual or the unit concerned, nor think of any circumstances where this would be justified.)

If that is the case, he is a civilian - as reflected in his Pay Grade/Band, rather than a Rank/Rate - and thus should not be wearing RN uniform at work (there may be occasions when he can wear it, such as funerals, certain functions and services, etc.) Furthermore, he is not subject to the Armed Forces Act (unless in specific operational circumstances) but duty bound to the Civil Service Code/Civil Service Management Code. Disciplinary matters would be dealt with by his HOD/CO (or MOD Police, where appropriate) rather than Service Police.

Maybe he's just a sad individual and cannot let it go..? :wink:
 

sgtpepperband

War Hero
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#13
Ian: As I said, there may be circumstances where there is a requirement or permission to do so (I have worked with CSs who wear uniform, but they are filling a military role on CS pay). But on paper, as Onions has described, he should not be wearing uniform if he is fulfilling a CS role. Of course, if more information is divulged, those circumstances may become clearer... :wink:
 
#15
It sounds like he is a FTRS - there's plenty around, all the way up to 1*. They are on reduced TACOS, but still wear the uniform and are covered by AFA06 - for good and bad. Perhaps this neighbour needs to worry about more important things?
 
#16
Live job advert from the civil service web site, I think you even get to wear a WO uniform :)Job DescriptionThis position requires a good working knowledge pertaining to the management and structure of the Royal Navy, Naval terminology, staff processes and the departmental/command structure of the Air Station. It also requires an understanding of the Divisional System, Armed Forces Discipline and Welfare Services and Emergency Response. The five Standing Officer’s of the Day (SOOD) work a five-watch system based on twelve-hour shifts. Their primary purpose is to be responsible for the day to day administration of the Air Station. Out of working hours the SOOD is the Commanding Officer’s representative and manages the Daily Station Routines and its Duty Watch. They are the first point of contact out of hours for all issues and emergencies affecting Station personnel. Their secondary function is to manage the Duty Watch and to carry out weapons checks of the Augmentation Force when required. PRINCIPLE TASKS a. To co-ordinate the day to day running of the Air Station in accordance with Culdrose Standing Orders b. The supervision of Duty Watch and Security section weapon handing drills and loading unloading procedures in accordance with BR8988 c. As a competent person with regard to explosive safety, he is functionally accountable to the Gunnery Officer for the custody, control and safe handling preparation and accounting of all licensed explosives in the guardroom ready use lockers d. To initiate the security section response to incidents e. Mustering and accounting of explosive and important keys f. The maintenance of the Daily Occurrence Log g. The conduct of station ceremonial h. Supervision of the arrival and departure of VIPs i. Monitoring the dress and bearing of uniformed personnel j. The monitoring of the fire and intruder alarm systems in the guardroom k. The single point of contact for the commcen out of hours signal traffic l. The Supervision of security rounds m. Initiating the correct actions in the event of a negligent discharge n. The authorisation of service transport out of working hours o. The authorisation of main broadcast pipes p. Mustering all station weapons held in the main armoury q. Any other tasks deemed appropriate by Command The SOOD post fits with the profile described within Pay Band D activities and characteristics; Although previous Command responsibilities are not required the SOOD will need to be able to take command of situations arising within the Station. The SOOD will have to employ Security personnel inclusive of Duty Watch in an appropriate manner to contain any incident within the Station or affecting outstations, the Banding with this post reflects the rank structure expected with these responsibilities for that of OR7 to SO2. The post will require a person ably equipped to communicate with both external emergency services and high ranking Officers when the occasion arises. The ability to brief detailed information in stressful occasions will be an absolute requirement and is reflective in the Band D post requirement. The SOOD will be required to support the Executive and the Air Station Duty Commanding Officer (DCO) and offer subject matter expertise advice in the response to any incident affecting the Station or Station personnel and as such will need to be equipped to mentor and advise DCO’s. The SOOD is expected to manage the Security personnel along with the Duty Watch and will need sufficient skills to do so whilst ensuring welfare and Service requirements are fulfilled.
 

sgtpepperband

War Hero
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#17
Ian: I'm not disputing your information; from the limited information posted by Onions previously, I believed the ex-WO was conducting a CS role in a military environment. As stated before, I concur that there are circumstances whereby a CS will be carrying out a military role (on CS pay), and thus is effectively a "civvy in uniform", in accordance with your post above, and thus has duties and responsibilities of a member of the Armed Forces. But it is generally accepted that CSs do not wear uniform, in accordance with my original post. FTRS is another matter entirely.
 
#19
Thanks SPB for your reply, it was just what I hoped you would say. Obviously no names no pack drill, but an obscure uniform regulation going back to the year dot has been mentioned. Another snippet is that it would appear that permission has been granted by the Commanding Officer for this civilian to wear his WO's uniform. I am hoping that my neighbour will ask for the chapter and verse. Again, sorry for being a bit vague.
 
#20
There was a case the other year whereby RNR personnel were invited to wear their uniforms to promote the RNR. A few civil servants at my place did.
 

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