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Does the RN need the RNR?

Does the RN need the RNR?

  • Yes, but changed from the way it is today

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No, a waste of money and valuable training time

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    178
nelsons_blood said:
I reckon a few of you blowing the RNR trumpet need a bit of a wake-up call!! There is so much I would like to reply to, however for starters....

1. Funding is tight everywhere within the MoD therefore training for reserve forces will never be the No 1 priority, no matter how much you feel you need it.

2. Training for the reserve forces generally prevents regulars from seeing their families during a weekend off, or are you suggesting that this should be the case?

3. Members of the RNR employed in a full time (FTRS) capacity are certainly of the opinion that the RN operates between 0800 - 1600 and that everything can wait until tomorrow morning. All very quick to start shouting about their contracts. Their professionalism and committment is therefore called into question.

4. Early RNR involvement in Op Highbrow was minimal. If the RNR cannot be called up and expected at work the following day, then they are not much use at all for short notice / immediate response operations.

5. There is obviously a requirement for the RNR, however, I suggest that the mindset of the RNR needs to be altered with expectations lowered as to what the RN will require from you. GSSR etc is a good idea, however if your training is not up to spec then you cannot expect to be sat around the table negotiating the solution to the middle-east problem.

Talk about contradictory statements! you say that the RN shouldn't have to give their weekends up and not see their families, so where are we supposed to get the training to get us to the standard that you refer to in point 4, to enable us to be 'called up and expected at work the next day'
As far as members of any branch of the armed forces having to forfeit time with their families to carry out a job, it seems to me to be irrelevant whether that time is given up to be operational or to train us civvies, surely that is a hazard of the job you joined up to do. I'm sick of this kind of attitude to the RNR or any other branch of the reserve forces, for example PSI's that ask to be drafted to an RNR unit and then dripping like a septic dick when they have to work the occasional weekend to assist with training of rnr's. (i'll give you a clue guys, PSI-Permanent staff INSTRUCTOR). Its in the job title. Grow up, cos like it or not we are part of the royal navy, and we are here to stay!
 
dubaipusser said:
FlagWagger said:
While I agree that it is important that due processes exist and are followed, those same processes should be appropriate to all organisations affected and should be flexible enough to allow short-term deviations to get over deficiencies. The CIS specialisation has just issued an interim ratings task book based on an RN OPS; its not actually a task book in the traditional sense, it does however give CIS ratings visibility of what their job involves and also some idea of what their training will cover. If we'd followed the strictly correct approach, CIS would be silent for the next 2-3 years!

Thanks FW - Pleased to hear about the CIS initiative and don't get me wrong, I am a pragmatist and proud of it - if the system doesn't work then change it - but be aware of why the system operates the way it does.

The danger remains that the CIS workaround is just that - a workaround and pressure still needs to be sustained to ensure that the spec gets the TD input it deserves to ensure that the training is relevant and 'accepted' by the RN. "Based on" is a start but doesn't sit comfortably with me - but then neither does being "silent for the next 2-3 years"

I agree wholeheartedly, the interim task books should have a short shelf-life and should be replaced by definitive training material ASAP. The training material on which lesson plans will be based is a mix of the current RN IS material (where available) and selected ISPECS from the extant COMMS(SEA) material. These will allow CIS to become established, however the longer that the RNR and RN CIS specialisations are singing from different hymn-sheets the greater the risk.

Another danger is that there are too many agencies involved ni the trainign design process, each with their own agenda. On my ORT in March this year I was working within Fleet N6; the Fleet view was that the RNR CIS OPS had been signed off and was nearly identical to the RN CIS OPS.

The attitude of Flagship staff at Colingrad was very much of the "that final 'R' is not in the contract mate" coupled with a total disbelief in the ability of the RNR to meet the signed-off OPS - they also believed that the TD for the RNR would be a completly new task (despite being based on the same OPS) due to the different delivery mechanisms, i.e. in-unit, Merwex, course as opposed to course, OJT.

The process should facilitate the provision of training services to the RN and RNR - my own experience of the process is that it does exactly the opposite.
 
Talk about contradictory statements! you say that the RN shouldn't have to give their weekends up and not see their families, so where are we supposed to get the training to get us to the standard that you refer to in point 4, to enable us to be 'called up and expected at work the next day'
As far as members of any branch of the armed forces having to forfeit time with their families to carry out a job, it seems to me to be irrelevant whether that time is given up to be operational or to train us civvies, surely that is a hazard of the job you joined up to do. I'm sick of this kind of attitude to the RNR or any other branch of the reserve forces, for example PSI's that ask to be drafted to an RNR unit and then dripping like a septic dick when they have to work the occasional weekend to assist with training of rnr's. (i'll give you a clue guys, PSI-Permanent staff INSTRUCTOR). Its in the job title. Grow up![/quote]

Strangely, the attitude you refer to is not visible any longer within the Brithish Army towards the Territorials, who have transformed themselves into a credible force able to conduct specialist or general operations worldwide. You could do far worse than take a leaf from their book.
 
nelsons_blood said:
Strangely, the attitude you refer to is not visible any longer within the Brithish Army towards the Territorials, who have transformed themselves into a credible force able to conduct specialist or general operations worldwide. You could do far worse than take a leaf from their book.

And i suppose that the territorials just up and trained themselves did they? The fact of the matter is that the TA and the regular army have been integrated for a long time, and this is probably down to the regular army not being stuffed full of anti TA bods unlike you give the impression the RN seems to be with the comments you make. If you want us to do a job, tell us what it is, give us the training required to do the job, and then let us do it. Its no good deriding us if your not willing to help out with a solution to the problem. Thankfully the majority of people I and most RNR's have met in the course of our duties have not got the same outlook as you have.
 
nelsons_blood said:
Strangely, the attitude you refer to is not visible any longer within the Brithish Army towards the Territorials, who have transformed themselves into a credible force able to conduct specialist or general operations worldwide. You could do far worse than take a leaf from their book.

Before citing the example of the TA you ought to ask a squaddy what "STAB" and "ARAB" mean.
 
nelsons_blood said:
quote]
Strangely, the attitude you refer to is not visible any longer within the Brithish Army towards the Territorials, who have transformed themselves into a credible force able to conduct specialist or general operations worldwide. You could do far worse than take a leaf from their book.

I don't know if that is true, but if it is it could have something to do with the Army treating the TA more as equals and not as an annoyance. Look at the Army recruitment ads for instance - they include the TA. We at the coal face have very little control over how the RN chooses to integrate us within the fleet, nor how they train us.

Apart from the hierarchy telling us they need us, I personally see little evidence of the RN making an effort to take us into the fold. The previous posters have made the point that if the RN want the RNR to do the job, then they do need to take a hand in training. Yes it's not nice giving up your weekends, but I don't hear the same gripes about giving up weekends to take the part ones onto Dartmoor etc. Or is that different because they're regular Navy not part time civvies.

Having said that, even where we have RNR guys capable of doing the training, the RN lead schools as stated previously do not want us to use the facilities without their own staff being there.

If you want to gripe about giving up weekends, (assuming you are involved in training), then try talking to your management, instead of moaning at the people who need to be trained to come up to YOUR standards.

In other words, perhaps it's the RN who need to take a leaf out of the Armys book

Rant over.
 
nelsons_blood said:
Strangely, the attitude you refer to is not visible any longer within the Brithish Army towards the Territorials, who have transformed themselves into a credible force able to conduct specialist or general operations worldwide. You could do far worse than take a leaf from their book.

If this is to happen as you would obviously like it to, the RNR cannot make it happen on their own without input from the RN, (If we can, please enlighten us as to how we go about it).

As in previous posts, you have yet to say what contact you have had with th RNR to lead you to these conclusions.
 
Picture the scene, RN ship alongside in a foreign port. Ships company told that they do not need to provide a spo team as the RNR have pitched up to do the job as part of their annual training. However, some of the ships company are not happy about this. They don't want to go ashore and get shiters. They'd much rather stay on board and act as they're own spo team, rather than have the RNR do the job...

Nah forget it, that'd never happen. :twisted:
 
M_M - I think you may be banging your head against a wall here. There are obviously too many negative thinkers within the RN who can't see past their own self importance and I think you have found one in N_B. They are the sort of people who will never accept the RNR no matter what argument we put forward.
 
O_H i fear you may be right. However it is my experience that people like him are the exception rather than the rule, and as long as we keep doing our job when asked, then we may eventually talk even the likes of him round. (nelsons blood indeed, i wonder how long it took him to come up with that, the anchor faced or what!) what we need are a few more positive (or negative yet CONSTRUCTIVE comments) from people like you that have spent a bit of time on both sides of the fence.
 
Whilst its easy to say "forget the RNR where were they on Highbrow" the fact remains that it is fleet which identifies the billets that need manning. In the case of highbrow there were a number of deeply specialised slots which needed bodies quickly and which got bodies quickly.

To slag off the RNR because the MW branch or something similar weren't there is a bit pointless, I assume you'll be saying that because only 6 ships were involved, we only need 6 in the RN becuase they couldnt get to the Op in time?
 
In todays operational clement, the RNR are getting more and more out of their depth which in theatre is a particular concern. Having managed 5 RNR’s in Iraq and still manage a large portion of FTRS personnel my concern is purely ATTITUDE. I agree that there is and always will be a need for the RNR and they do a sterling job, however I am concerned that many approach FTRS with memories of the past and are simply ‘past it’. This is not necessary a result of age but a result of modernisation and education. You mention weekends (Friday afternoons and Wednesday M&Ms) well consider 2SL PFS and the CWW. That will answer that question without mercy.
Somehow we need to recruit the right person for the job and train accordingly.
 
flipflop said:
.........I am concerned that many approach FTRS with memories of the past and are simply ‘past it’. This is not necessary a result of age but a result of modernisation and education.

Sadly true of many regular reservists on FTRS as well as RNR's.
 
bunnyjumper said:
all_purple_now said:
nelsons_blood said:
I reckon a few of you blowing the RNR trumpet need a bit of a wake-up call!! There is so much I would like to reply to, however for starters....

I recall a previous thread in which Nelsons Blood started sounding off about the RNR.

May I suggest DNFTT?

APN

Obviously someone who calls himself Nelsons Blood, will be unable to function outside of the RN. Suggest therefore he is probably likely to want to join the RNR. Perhaps then he will change his views. :wink:

Or perhaps he will be able to give us the benefit of his experience.

Nelsons blood, Come out of the clossit.
 
flipflop said:
bunnyjumper said:
all_purple_now said:
nelsons_blood said:
I reckon a few of you blowing the RNR trumpet need a bit of a wake-up call!! There is so much I would like to reply to, however for starters....

I recall a previous thread in which Nelsons Blood started sounding off about the RNR.

May I suggest DNFTT?

APN

Obviously someone who calls himself Nelsons Blood, will be unable to function outside of the RN. Suggest therefore he is probably likely to want to join the RNR. Perhaps then he will change his views. :wink:

Or perhaps he will be able to give us the benefit of his experience.

Nelsons blood, Come out of the clossit.

Whats a clossit? 8O
 

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