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Do we need a UKNDA and/or a BAFF?

Re: DO WE NEED A NATIONAL DEFENCE ASSOCIATION AND/OR A &quot

If a pongo from Arrse might be permitted to drop in briefly....?

As some here will know I'm one of the BAFF steering group, currently involved in working up the "purple proposition" for an organisation which will both comply with the Ten Points and provide a voice for, as someone here nearly put it, Jack, Tommy, Wayne and the wider Rupert.

I shan't deny a degree of frustration at the distraction that the NDA/BAFF debate has occasioned. It was and is ultimately sterile and well done to Cdr John for rethinking the main purpose of the NDA - I think this makes it a much more focused proposition. As an ex-SNCO, I know little of grand strategy, but "maintenance of the aim" rings a bell.

Tactically, I think it would be wise for the good Commander to place his latest draft in a separate thread on each forum and make it clear that it is a major rewrite - that'll be much more likely to attract a lively debate.

Another quite gratuitous and unsolicited piece of advice, which Cdr John should accept or not as he chooses, is that he might find his ride a touch easier if he were to engage a little more openly in the debate. It's in the nature of these things that the tone will sometimes be robust, but there's rarely malice in it.

GIAO
 
Re: DO WE NEED A NATIONAL DEFENCE ASSOCIATION AND/OR A &quot

I've been asked to post the revised draft of the NDA paper.

I also think it might be worth clarifying the position of Rumration/ARRSE wrt NDA/BAFF. We believe that both initiatives are debates that are worth having and are very keen to facilitate that to the best of our ability. Having said that we do not take a position on which is the best way forward nor are we involved in developing them.
 
Re: DO WE NEED A NATIONAL DEFENCE ASSOCIATION AND/OR A &quot

Have now read the amended paper and have the following questions/points:

1. You mentioned in your last post that an interim executive committee was in existance but this is not mentioned in the paper. Do you have reps from the 3 services on your steering group? And what rank and experience range is there amongst them?

2. The paper is still heavy on administrative, wiring diagram detail and light on explaining the range of the NDA's operations. You include detail on remunerating Board members out of pocket expenses but there is no detail on methods of how you will seek member's suggestions on NDA priority objectives, nor how you wil decide which issues ultimately get the NDA priority.

3. Could you give some examples of what National Defence issues you see as fair game?

4. Where will the NDA stand from a purple point of view when there is a distinct conflict in single service needs? There is ultimately a finite state budget and military procurement (with long lead times) is as much a matter of time and space. What will happen within the membership of the NDA when one service sees NDA priority lobbying going to another service because the HQ DNA considers that overall we are best served by more RAF fighters/tanks/ships?

5. I think that you do not understand 'Charitable' status. All charities are 'not-for-profit organisations however not all 'not-for-profits' are charities. I believe the NDA should register as a NFP but I do not see it meeting the criteria of a charity. Have you researched this?
 
Re: DO WE NEED A NATIONAL DEFENCE ASSOCIATION AND/OR A &quot

By the way Frustrated you state towards the end of your paper that Rum Ration is accessed via the ARRSE site. For an ex IT consultant I'm surprised you haven't noticed that Rum Ration is its own site www.rumration.co.uk
 
Re: DO WE NEED A NATIONAL DEFENCE ASSOCIATION AND/OR A &quot

Frustrated said:
Noted. Thank you.

This is ridiculous. Jasper asks some very pertinent questions, adds a point about a typo and you only see fit to respond to the typo. How deferential does one have to be to get you to get some answers from you?! I'll have a go...

1. Frustrated. You are clearly a very intelligent and driven man, being obviously numerate to a high level. Could you therefore please share with us how many people are currently involved in the NDA (it would just be a matter of counting)? And perhaps you could tell us from which service they are drawn, and what their ages are and what their military/naval experience has been. If you have time, of course.

2. Frustrated. In your successful naval career, you will have written some excellent pieces of staffwork and probably been promoted numerous times on their basis. In your recently updated paper, you have shown an admirable grasp of the detail of setting up a lobbying organisation, including how you will be paid, and who answers to whom on which days. However, an IT glitch at my end must have regrettably cut the section detailing the mechanism by which ordinary members of the NDA will influence the overall strategy and direction of the association. If you have time, could you share this with me?

3. Frustrated. As a naval officer of considerable standing, you will of course be aware of the regrettable inter-services competion for a decreasing slice of the Defence Budget. I am sure that reasons of space alone caused you to omit a section detailing your policy for dealing with this within the NDA from your wonderful paper, but as I am a mere intellectual pygmy, could you please tell me how you intend to deal with this.

PLEASE please take the time to answer these really very easy questions (or Jasper's if you want, as they are much better put), as it will clear up a lot of the major uncertainty about the NDA. I apologise for the tone, but I'm trying every tack thinkable to get you to respond. Thank you.
 
Re: DO WE NEED A NATIONAL DEFENCE ASSOCIATION AND/OR A &quot

Geoffrey, we could form a band and call it the Head Wall Bangers.

I foolishly thought there was a glimmer of hope in responses from Frustrating a page or so ago but it was a false dawn. Regardless that limited information implied a wider group, the NDA is actually just Cdr Muxworthy. If it was otherwise other members of the group would be on here championing the cause and sharing the load. This is in stark contrast to the BAFF Steering Group over on ARRSE where reasonable and unreasonable questions rarely go more than an hour without a response. I'm not suggesting the two groups are competitors but as start-ups they enjoy a similar situation.

Why is it important that the NDA is more than a one man band? Because it has been in existance for at least a year now (probably longer) and yet it has gained no momentum. No matter how intelligent or creative a single person an undertaking of this size and scope needs several people to actually move it forward. A one man band smacks of 'control freak'.

This failure to bring others in is disappointing as a number of posters on this side have offerred their services and could have been swept up immediately. I think something like the NDA could be a good thing however for it to be successful it will need to connect with the grass-roots servicemen. To date the NDA has failed to to do so even on Frustrated's own service (RN) forum. I also think the BAFF proposal has serious challenges ahead however they are making a major effort to connect with the grass-roots and develop their plan based on that feedback. As a result some really interesting suggestions have come up that will no doubt shape the whole thing. The NDA should take heed.

For me this onesided debate is over. Frustrated, I wish you good sailing.

Jasper
 
Re: DO WE NEED A NATIONAL DEFENCE ASSOCIATION AND/OR A &quot

Jasper, I feel your frustration, it is not nice talking to a brickwall!

I really have not got into this debate as it doesn't light my interests, no reflect on the person writing it but its not a thing for me. And to be honest I don't fully understand the whole thing :oops: However I have been following this topic as it seems to have gained alot of interest.

Frustrated, may I suggest that you carefully read Jasper's questions and reply. This will also benefit you, at the end of the day it is the little people that count, if you do not have them onboard then you ain't going to float, so to speak.

Jasper, if you feel you are being ignored, PM PTP he is good within this area, he may take a little time to reply as I think he maybe away. However, he does have his 'ways' of getting to information and he is very helpful :wink:

On that note, I will fade away into the shadows again!

Jenny
xxxx
 
Re: DO WE NEED A NATIONAL DEFENCE ASSOCIATION AND/OR A &quot

Ladies & Gentlemen... I apologise for not responding instantly, but I have been distracted by work (NDA) and, until the wee small hours, watching Colin Montgomerie failing, by just one stroke, to win his first golfing Major.

As to numbers in the NDA - as yet we do not know because our formal recruiting campaign has not yet been launched but - if you'll accept a guesstimate - active and positive support currently runs into the high hundreds/low thousands.

"Ordinary" members will make their presence and views felt by accessing our NDA Website (again, when launched) and/or by contacting the appropriate Vice President on the Policy Board representing their particular sphere of influence.

As to Inter-Service in-fighting for limited funds, this major issue will be addressed by a 'top down' approach - which is summarised in our one page 'Executive Summary' I now reproduce here. I hope this helps.

TTHE NEED FOR A NATIONAL DEFENCE ASSOCIATION
AN EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

THE PROBLEM AND THE CHALLENGE

The Armed Forces are low in the Nation's list of priorities; in the view of the NDA - far too low.
This means that the Armed Forces are under resourced (under funded) for the tasks they are set.
This results in inter-Service wrangles as to who gets what of an inadequate budget.
This leads to over-stretch of the Forces and, from time to time equipment shortages and or failures.
This leads to increasing pressures on the most important element of our Armed Forces - the serving men and women who do the work - and their families.
These pressures on "our people" and their families range right across the board - from financial pressures and family pressures to disciplinary pressures - and more besides.

BUT -

ALL OF THESE PROBLEMS STEM FROM TO THE FIRST TWO STATEMENTS WRITTEN ABOVE.

1. DEFENCE IS TOO LOW IN THE NATION's LIST OF PRIORITIES.
2. DEFENCE (the Armed Forces) IS THEREFORE UNDERFUNDED.

Sort out those two fundamental problems - and improvements will cascade on downwards. THIS is what the NDA intends to address and publicise - the whole issue from the top down.

THE PROBLEM

The Chief of the Defence Staff and his three Service Chiefs cannot air their problems in public; their financial battles with the Treasury and the Government are played out behind closed doors. No organisation exists to pro-actively publicise the case for adequate, appropriate and properly resourced Armed Forces; there needs to be.

THE SOLUTION – AN NDA

We are establishing a National Defence Association (an NDA) whose purpose is to:

Present to the public, press and politicians of the United Kingdom the case for sufficient, appropriate and fully funded Armed Forces and other Defence Services, so that the Country, its people and their vital interests at home and throughout the world are defended effectively.

We seek YOUR support
 
Re: DO WE NEED A NATIONAL DEFENCE ASSOCIATION AND/OR A &quot

It is wonderful for some one in retirement to be so busy.

On the other hand perhaps if you really do wish the support of us ordinary mortals answering some of the questions posed might help.

Just saying as you appear to be "I have a brass hat so trust me" is not good enough when you need mass support.

Peter
 
Re: DO WE NEED A NATIONAL DEFENCE ASSOCIATION AND/OR A &quot

Frustrating, you are answering questions no one has asked and not answering those we have. No-one asked about your membership numbers. Here is a summary of questions:

1. You mentioned in your last post that an interim executive committee was in existance but this is not mentioned in the paper. Do you have reps from the 3 services on your steering group? And what rank and experience range is there amongst them?
2. The paper is still heavy on administrative, wiring diagram detail and light on explaining the range of the NDA's operations. You include detail on remunerating Board members out of pocket expenses but there is no detail on methods of how you will seek member's suggestions on NDA priority objectives, nor how you wil decide which issues ultimately get the NDA priority.

3. Could you give some examples of what National Defence issues you see as fair game?

4. Where will the NDA stand from a purple point of view when there is a distinct conflict in single service needs? There is ultimately a finite state budget and military procurement (with long lead times) is as much a matter of time and space. What will happen within the membership of the NDA when one service sees NDA priority lobbying going to another service because the HQ DNA considers that overall we are best served by more RAF fighters/tanks/ships?

5. I think that you do not understand 'Charitable' status. All charities are 'not-for-profit organisations however not all 'not-for-profits' are charities. I believe the NDA should register as a NFP but I do not see it meeting the criteria of a charity. Have you researched this?

DIRECT ANSWERS TO ALL 5 QUESTIONS PLEASE!
 
Re: DO WE NEED A NATIONAL DEFENCE ASSOCIATION AND/OR A &quot

Frustrated said:
As to numbers in the NDA - as yet we do not know because our formal recruiting campaign has not yet been launched but - if you'll accept a guesstimate - active and positive support currently runs into the high hundreds/low thousands.

Jamming on RR... fight through! Yet again, for the sixth time (I've counted) you have refused to answer the exact same incredibly simple question. It is patently obvious by the evasive tactics of which that Peter Mandelson would be proud that you are desperately trying to hide something (and I think we ALL know what that is). But for the sake of clarity, and transparency, SURELY it is not too difficult to answer the question:

HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE CURRENTLY
(not in the future, not messages of support, not emails from your friends but today, right now) INVOLVED WITH THE SETTING UP OF THE NDA?

And while you're at it, how about answering the other question about what their range and breadth of experience is?
 
Re: DO WE NEED A NATIONAL DEFENCE ASSOCIATION AND/OR A &quot

Frustrated said:
I refer you to my answer above - this morning timed at 0834.

That'd be the one that I directly quoted at the top of my post then. I refuse to believe you are stupid, frustrated, just incredibly stubborn and unhelpful. Perhaps you're so busy that you didn't read my question correctly. I'll try again, for the seventh time...

HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE CURRENTLY
(not in the future, not messages of support, not emails from your friends but today, right now) INVOLVED WITH THE SETTING UP OF THE NDA?

And while you're at it, how about answering the other question about what their range and breadth of experience is?

There is clearly a very small number of you - so it shouldn't take that long to count them up. Or prove me wrong. Please.

Once again, that question is...

HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE CURRENTLY INVOLVED WITH THE SETTING UP OF THE NDA?
 
Re: DO WE NEED A NATIONAL DEFENCE ASSOCIATION AND/OR A &quot

Frustrated said:
I refer you to my answer above - this morning timed at 0834.

No that stated the numbers who had expressed support (and is so vague as to be meaningless anyway), not the numbers who were actively involved in setting up the association.

Perhaps since I got my bus pass I have become a trifle cynical, but my interpretatoon of the situation is that Frustrated, is very much a one man band who is not really interested in dealing with those who may criticise his ideas, and is unwilling to be open with those who would be willing to support him.

Peter
 

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