DNA database............

Discussion in 'The Quarterdeck' started by brazenhussy, Feb 24, 2008.

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  1. Can we forget about being horrified that our 'human rights' are being compromised for just a teeny minute?
    Good.
    Now that you've managed to do that, just imagine the worst scenario.
    Your loved one has been brutally raped and murdered. You know that their last moments of life were so agonising that they prayed for death.
    Still reading? Good.
    Now imagine that ten years pass and you still have no closure because the murderer hasn't been caught. This could be YOU and YOUR family having to come to terms with the fact that the person you love has died violently and that someone out there hasn't been brought to justice.
    Let's do away with finer feelings and just accept that DNA databases MUST be the law. If it happens then we can't argue - in the same way that we can't argue about poll tax, speed cameras, anti-smoking laws etc. (the list is endless) We're not 'free' now and we will never be - FACT!
    Does it really matter if we have nothing to hide?
    I don't care who knows what about me because I have absolutely nothing to hide.
    What is the problem with these people who are against this DNA database system? Are they afraid that in a year or so they might commit a crime?
    Or maybe they already have and know that they'll be caught if their DNA is matched?
    If this becomes law then that's all there is to be said. We will all comply in the same way that we have with all the other laws that infringe on our freedom. And we'll do it because it's the law.
     
  2. BH, you cannot rely upon DNA evidence alone. If there is not corroborative evidence backing up DNA samples taken from the scene of the crime, which could have contaminated the scene from a number of sources, then it's of little use. When I was growing up there were rather too many cases that came to the attention of the public where wrongful convictions were made upon the production in court of forensic evidence which was not corroborated by witness accounts, etc. It was once considered expectable to plant evidence. In times of media pressure for results to a serious case it could prove tempting again for these old malpractices to resurface. A national DNA database of everyone increases the risk of this substantially.
     
  3. I agree- i wasn't disputing DNA evidence-- what I was saying was if u have nothing to hide-- why not give a sample??
     
  4. Could you really trust this government to keep a DNA database secure, FFS they can't even keep some computer discs or a laptop safe. What if your DNA data becomes corrupted and you get pinged for a crime you didn't commit !! or someone gets "paid off" and suddenly your DNA is that of some rapist or murderer ??
     
  5. Absolutely not, the existence of such a database implies a presumption of guilt and offers the government far more information about the individual than it requires to do it's business.

    The machinery of government is supposed to be in place to support the citizen, not the other way round. We live in a capitalist economy and the individual should be as free from state interference as possible.


    Yes we can, we are each entitled to our own views and the facility to voice them. The state still hasn't outlawed independent thought, although clearly some segments of society want them to.

    Yes.

    The state is pervasive enough as it is, we need give it no more opportunity to control our behaviour and actions than it has already.

    More fool you. The existence of consolidated information of the nature required makes it extremely straightforward to hijack your identity, individuals within government have been known to make use of information that they have available to them for criminal purposes, we should be under no illusions about just how safe this information would be.

    Why does it become a problem as such when one objects to the overbearing and excessive intrusion of the state on the life of the individual? Who made you the thought police?
     
  6. A DNA database would allow a corrupt government to frame it's citizens at will.
     
  7. I would not trust this lot with my DNA....I.D. Passport ..Milk tokens..ETC.
     

  8. Exactly… and as I tell people who spout the 'if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide…' mantra

    If I'm doing nothing wrong, why does the Government want to keep tabs on me?
     
  9. They would take my DNA by force if ever this became law. ! I have never done anything wrong, and am not likely too either. I would agree to give a sample to eliminate me from inquiries IF that sample were destroyed afterwards once my innocence was proved (like that would happen in the real world).
    DNA is a fundamental part of our individual make up, to hold this sort of information on innocent people in case they MAY commit a crime is unacceptable to me. The police should collect evidence first and not rely upon DNA to prove their case. We live in a democracy, not a police state (yet).
     
  10. It will happen eventually, I can understand why those who oppose it do oppose it, but think about it like this, It will make crime detection easier, it will mean more and faster convictions and it will cut crime.

    If we had a national database of DNA, the likes of sutcliffe would have been identified much much earlier.
     
  11. BH you frame a good case for the introduction of such a database .. but its emotional! Of course if our loved ones had suffered then we would all be screaming for a DNA Database/Return of the Death Penalty/Keel Hauling etc etc - but I have to agree from the others that it would give the govt of the day far too much information about individuals.

    This all seems to be taking the Nanny State a little too far. At present we can be tracked across every major city and even most small towns by CCTV .. I forget exactly how many times we are "captured" on camera per day by it is in the hundreds.

    Information containing DoB and NiNo's was sent by CD from one govt dept to another in the post .. in this day and age why didn't they just e mail it? The Govt has proved that they cannot be trusted with the information they already hold about it's citizens without giving them something else.

    Where is this information going to be held?? Who gets access?? Because it wouldn't be just the Serious Crime Squad would it .. the CSA would want a go as well .. think of all the absent parents they could chase up. Banks would want it to replace Chip and Pin .. and what about identical twins - there may be minute differences in their DNA but is forensics an exact science?? Would 9 out of 10 markers be sufficient to convict - beyond all reasonable doubt - and yet another innocent victum of the justice system.

    Where do we stand with the Data Protection Act about all this?? It's not that I have anythig to hide because I dont but as someone in this thread said .. we live in a Capitalist society yet we have an elected Socialist Govt and the last time I heard the Labour party still had the Red Flag as their anthem .. and that is Communist! Which brings us back to Big Brother and round we go again!
     
  12. On the face of it a very good argument but how many of us trust the government with quite such a powerful tool and database, what other information about the individual can be gleaned from the data, and especially how valuable would that information be to others.

    Then there are the questions over the accuracy of some of the more modern means of recovering DNA information which have led to several cases being dismissed.

    On balance at least for the time being I think that I would prefer the poice to have good reason to find out what my DNA is rather than just giving it to them in case it came in handy. Not so much human rights but trust, or in this case the lack of it.

    Finally, the growth of forensic methods of detection does not seem to have reuced the propensity of people to become criminals, so would such a database cut crime, I suspect not. Perhaps we should see the government apply more resources to crime prevention in the short term as more prevention means less victims and that after all should be our real objective.
     
  13. Totally agree Maxi. The whole purpose of crime is to relocate something (i.e. money/wealth) that someone else has to you to enable you to enjoy the benefits as well without having to work for it. Thus presumably the DNA database would soon link all said criminals and put them in prison thus ending crime ... oh hang on .. what about those criminals that dont leave DNA traces .. like the old age pensioner who doesn't pay his council tax or the mathmatical genius who swindled the banks out off billions??

    Hmm .. think the Govt has been watchingtoo many re-runs of CSI which while it is based on fact .. we ue Lumisol at work and quite fasinating it is too ... it aint all its cracked up to be.
     
  14. BH I do have something to hide, my private life. Be assured if the Gov't gets our DNA, then the Gov't will know more about us that we do. Do you really want that?
     
  15. I've got nothing to hide but I don't trust the Goverment to keep my data secure. How many records have been reported lost over the passed few months? Do you think we can trust the Civil servants to keep something as personnel as DNA records safe!
     
  16. BH's case is a good example of why we shouldn't let emotion interfere with the law and justice. Yes there would be a benefit of speeding up investigations, but it wouldn't necessarily lead to a conclusion, or the right conclusion. It is all too easy to imagine a situation where the government changes the law to suit their own monitoring activity. Heck, given laws presently on the statute books, the Commons can force through a law despite objections from the Lords. Given the Labour majority in the House, we live under a democratic dictatorship, where what the Cabinet wants, the Cabinet gets, effectively. It would be all too easy for a cascade of legisalation to be passed that would drop into a Germany-in-the-1930s or a 1984-like scenario. That is the nightmare scenario.

    What is more likely in the near future is the misuse, deliberate or accidental, that having such information floating in the Government data coffers would allow. Already we've seen personal bank details lost from official databases. Seemingly every week we find another database being lost by some inept person working under inept rules. There is a complete lack of trust in the Government's ability to manage the information it has available to it. Now they want each of us to willingly and individually be tracked on the basis of DNA? Heck, they can't even secure a database of bank account details!

    Then there is the all-to-great faith placed on DNA evidence. Imagine some criminal wanting to divert attention at a crime scene. To use an example quoted last night on Question Time, all he has to do is drop a fag end randomly picked up off of the street in the area of the scene of crime; that fag end could have been yours, BH, and now you're implicated in a criminal investigation. You may not be guilty of anything other than tossing a fag end into a gutter, but now you've got the full force of the law breathing down your neck - and their record of getting the right person is hardly spotless.

    No, no and a thousand times no. Until the Government (of either colour) proves themselves capable of managing data AND introduce measures so that the electorate can oust them instantly, they cannot and will not have a DNA database.
     
  17. Seaweed

    Seaweed War Hero Book Reviewer

    My understanding is that the methodical Dutch had comprehensive records of everybody in the 1930s. The Germans had these used to round up the Dutch Jews. I seem to remember beong told once that the (oh-so-liberal) Swedes have long had comprehensive street by street records of everybody.
     

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