MasterChief
MIA

I would be very interested to hear peoples comments on the state of the divisional system in RNR units ? also have many of your read the "RN Ethos" leaflet available to all at units
yours aye
yours aye
Brilliant generalisation there.fullasternboth said:The divisional system is fine, its the DO's that are the problem. Finding a good officer that is interested in his people is rarity. It is the DSR's that hold it together.
GCYZ said:I Know, lets rename STO's, DO's. They could be responsible for Discipline, welfare, training etc. We could write a book and call it "The Divisional Officers Handbook" and give it the BR number 1992. (tongue firmly in cheek)
To me the rot set in when we introduced BTO's and tried to introduce a system out of step with the RN. In Some units, ratings had BTO's and DO’s, so the whole thing became confused and we have never recovered. Perhaps it stems from having clear line of responsibility from TPO/UTO(S) on the training side and 1st Lt on the divisional side. What ever the reasoning was or is, it ain’t working!
That is exactly my point. Why do we need separate roles? In the RN the DO has the training role, why should the RNR split the job. This only causes confusion among the JR’s. They see an officer in charge of their division and that’s all that matters, they don’t care if he is DO or STO. When I was a BTO JR’s would come to me with request forms to be signed etc. Did I turn them away and “wait until next week to see your DOâ€, of course not. The key is having a DO who turns up every week! The role we currently call STO is a major function of a traditional DO. We need one person the JR’s can focus on. BR1992 works for the RN why shouldn’t it work for the RNR?PartTimer said:GCYZ said:I Know, lets rename STO's, DO's. They could be responsible for Discipline, welfare, training etc. We could write a book and call it "The Divisional Officers Handbook" and give it the BR number 1992. (tongue firmly in cheek)
To me the rot set in when we introduced BTO's and tried to introduce a system out of step with the RN. In Some units, ratings had BTO's and DO’s, so the whole thing became confused and we have never recovered. Perhaps it stems from having clear line of responsibility from TPO/UTO(S) on the training side and 1st Lt on the divisional side. What ever the reasoning was or is, it ain’t working!
STO's are not meant to be DO's - they are meant to assist the STO and the XO (in their capcity as Training Officer) in providing specialist training and planning of ORT to enable the ships company to achiveve TPS/OPS and Bounty. They also must ensure personnel records are in order so that gains to the TS (which they must ensure personnel reach with specified time limits) can be determined and together with the DOs ensure that PTPs match specialisation tarining requirements as laid out in BR60A.
DO's, as you say, are responsible to the 1st Lt, and much greater emphasis is now being placed on divisional work and welfare of personnel. Part of the problem in the past has been the dropping of the requirement for annual reporting outside of promotion reports etc. Consequently, the only reports on file were from ORT, unless the individual was in zone. Annual reporting has now retuned so the situation should improve, especially as their is a big push to improve the quality of report writing and actively include DSRs.
STO's may act as senior DO's, but they're more like a HOD.
GCYZ said:That is exactly my point. Why do we need separate roles? In the RN the DO has the training role, why should the RNR split the job. This only causes confusion among the JR’s. They see an officer in charge of their division and that’s all that matters, they don’t care if he is DO or STO. When I was a BTO JR’s would come to me with request forms to be signed etc. Did I turn them away and “wait until next week to see your DOâ€, of course not. The key is having a DO who turns up every week! The role we currently call STO is a major function of a traditional DO. We need one person the JR’s can focus on. BR1992 works for the RN why shouldn’t it work for the RNR?PartTimer said:GCYZ said:I Know, lets rename STO's, DO's. They could be responsible for Discipline, welfare, training etc. We could write a book and call it "The Divisional Officers Handbook" and give it the BR number 1992. (tongue firmly in cheek)
To me the rot set in when we introduced BTO's and tried to introduce a system out of step with the RN. In Some units, ratings had BTO's and DO’s, so the whole thing became confused and we have never recovered. Perhaps it stems from having clear line of responsibility from TPO/UTO(S) on the training side and 1st Lt on the divisional side. What ever the reasoning was or is, it ain’t working!
STO's are not meant to be DO's - they are meant to assist the STO and the XO (in their capcity as Training Officer) in providing specialist training and planning of ORT to enable the ships company to achiveve TPS/OPS and Bounty. They also must ensure personnel records are in order so that gains to the TS (which they must ensure personnel reach with specified time limits) can be determined and together with the DOs ensure that PTPs match specialisation tarining requirements as laid out in BR60A.
DO's, as you say, are responsible to the 1st Lt, and much greater emphasis is now being placed on divisional work and welfare of personnel. Part of the problem in the past has been the dropping of the requirement for annual reporting outside of promotion reports etc. Consequently, the only reports on file were from ORT, unless the individual was in zone. Annual reporting has now retuned so the situation should improve, especially as their is a big push to improve the quality of report writing and actively include DSRs.
STO's may act as senior DO's, but they're more like a HOD.
PartTimer said:OK, DO's in regular training establishments (for this is what we must compare an RU too, depite the name change from RTC), do perform the role of STO (scheduling training etc), but this is there full time job. DO stuff is done around the day job. In the Reserves we just don't have the time to do this, hence what is a split in responsibility - a sensible split imo.
I agree the DO's need to turn up regularly, but this is also where the DSR's role comes in. I don't agree we need on person as a focus - that means one person does all the jobs and juniors don't get any experience! My RU is actually looking at Divisions of only 4 or 5, both to ensure quality pf reporting and to give SR's divisional experience.
GCYZ said:PartTimer said:OK, DO's in regular training establishments (for this is what we must compare an RU too, depite the name change from RTC), do perform the role of STO (scheduling training etc), but this is there full time job. DO stuff is done around the day job. In the Reserves we just don't have the time to do this, hence what is a split in responsibility - a sensible split imo.
I agree the DO's need to turn up regularly, but this is also where the DSR's role comes in. I don't agree we need on person as a focus - that means one person does all the jobs and juniors don't get any experience! My RU is actually looking at Divisions of only 4 or 5, both to ensure quality pf reporting and to give SR's divisional experience.
In my unit (stand by for potential beadwindow) there is a PSI assigned to each Specialisation. RNR 16's are passed through the PSI for approval (Including Officers, but we'll not go there). The PSI amends the PTP to show training has taken place etc, contacts the individual if there are any problems etc. This frees up the STO to be a DO. Since we introduced this system it has worked very well. Don't know if this is unique to us or common to other RU's. Agree in principal with small divisions (after all that is how the term came about) but unfortunately the regular attendee with shoulder the burden. The role of giving Juniors experience is very much determined by how we task ADO's, and that is another point for dicussion.
Uncle_Albert said:I spent a year as a DO before being relieved of it due to taking on another role within unit, and as such I'd like to throw in my few pence.
I think I was a good DO, and I did it by being in almost every week (I miss maybe two or three drill nights a year). Every report was in on time, every advancment opportunity was pursued, every rating was spoken to regularly, employers were telephoned and placated/filled in (in the non-violent sense), birthdays acknowledged (surpringsly effective), paperwork filed, the whole shebang; the secret is graft.
I didn't do JODMAC as it was removed just as I got to it (and as such my time at BRNC didn't contain any DO training as they anticipated me doing it in JODMAC - another example of the sheer genius of synchronicity frequently found in the RNR), but I did take a copy of BR1992 home and read it. It took a couple of hours and some iniative to really get to grips with it. Essentially, any DO can be a good DO in the RNR by just putting in the time and asking the Chief Writer/PSI/experienced DOs.
I accept that some people simply cannot put the time in, and I know that some people choose not to put the time in, leaving the unit with the added problem that the best people for the top jobs in unit are also the best people to be the DOs. My replacement is rarely in, but the DO in charge of the other half of that branch has simply taken on all their colleague's duties as well. He doesn't like it, but he's doing it, because that's what officers are damned well supposed to do, effectively giving him a division of over 15 people.
In summary, the problem isn't the lack of JODMAC, the unavailablity of training or lack of access to BR1992; it's graft (and initiative) and the lack of it from people who chose to become officers and chose to take on these extra duties.
On a side note, every unit gets the same number of PSIs, meaning the amount of help one can reasonably expect from a PSI is much smaller at the big units that at the little units; roll on regionalisation!
I agree and disagree, yes the key is having dedicated people who put the time in, but they also require training so we are all singing from the same hymn sheet. In the dim and distant past before the introduction of the BRNC course, ASLT's attended RNAC (RN Acquaint Course) at RNSLAM. This was essentially an RNRised DO's Course with additional leadership and General Info included, (for example you spent an evening as 2OOD on a ship, and Evening as 2OOD in NELSON, an evening with the provost, driving around the fleshpots of Pompy etc. The middle weekend was taken up with Sea survival and firefighting) I have not attended the BRNC course, but talking to Subbies who have it does not seem to have any of this. The good ones will try hard to find out for themselves, the rest will not bother.Uncle_Albert said:.....I didn't do JODMAC as it was removed just as I got to it (and as such my time at BRNC didn't contain any DO training as they anticipated me doing it in JODMAC - another example of the sheer genius of synchronicity.......
..........In summary, the problem isn't the lack of JODMAC, the unavailablity of training or lack of access to BR1992; it's graft (and initiative) and the lack of it from people who chose to become officers and chose to take on these extra duties.