Direct Entry Aircrewman

Discussion in 'The Fleet Air Arm' started by Tom27, Jul 27, 2008.

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  1. I have been reading some old posts and it has been suggested that aircrewman in the FAA may be becoming a direct entry branch rather than an internal move.

    Have these plans been shelved or is it coming? I see from a recent post below that direct entry Airtraffic control has arrived!

    Also, if one does want to move to aircrewman (assuming medical et al is okay) is there an age limit?
  2. Direct entry for Aircrewman is still at the paperwork stage at the moment but might be in by summer next year.

    To be honest, if you have the education and aptitude that the branch is looking for I would personally look at a lighter shade of blue to wear.

    The proposal for the RN is to make you a PO after about 4 years of service. Compare this to the RAF and you would be a SGT in about 15 weeks. Jobs are very limited in the RN as an acmn, the RAF however have a lot more opportunities due to the many different aircraft types they fly.

    The ACMN branch is currently sideways transfer only and I believe the upper age limit is 26, although some have got in that are older.

    Any other questions about this PM me and I will try to answer them for you.
  3. De ACMN will be for Merlin only.

    This has now been postponed to post Merlin upgrade programme.

    I understand the automatic promotion to PO will now be looked at outside of the DE paper.
  4. Not too sure about giving someone the rate of PO straight away. Give them the pay, but not the rate. The reason you are not just an aircrewman, but a senior rate having to do the job of a senior rate. How can someone with no experience of the mob do this.
  5. Completely agree with this one. Having served on RAF stations with immature Sgt aircrew has proven the point.
    Let them be promoted to Sub/Lt then the wardroom can take care of the babies. :thumright:
    It was bad enough having 20 year old tiffy POs
  6. This was being muted when I was an aircrewman some 15 years ago now.

    The plan then was when the Merlin was brought into service, DE ACMN would be the order of the day. 2 reasons mainly. (This is purely my understanding).

    The first being the advanced avionic package. Secondly, it would bring RN aircrewmen in line with the crabs. As the ASW sensors in the Dimrod and ASW Merlin were similar it made sense.

    But I see time has passed and it's still a pipe dream. Nothing changes apart from my waistline!!!!!! Oh and hair!!!!!
  7. The automatic promotion to PO is the culmination of over 3 years training where leadership will be developed alongwith technical skill. This is actually happening in these time scale now with undermanning. So the plan only mimics reality. Also the warfare branch development study called for accelerated promotion to PO for warfare ratings in time for the T45

    The rate of LACMN was justified in the days of the wasp and wessex 3 but todays highly technical aircraft justify the rate of PO. Unless you have operated these machines you are in no position to comment. Standfast WASPIE

    The Rank also helps in retention and recruiting for a branch that is gusting 30% undermanning. We are losing people hand over fist to Civillian flying jobs that are paying upto 50k and the foriegn ones are tax free. If anybody has a plan where the Navy can combat this then I am sure people will be all ears.

    All I am saying is let the current branch decide what is good for it and consider that we are in a tchnicaly differen era.
  9. #

    Highly skilled, three years training?
    Any other branch in the RN currently promoting to PO after only three years? :pukel:
  10. F*ck me 3 years and PO you could teach leadership in 3 years but you can't teach experience. I hated mickey mouse Killicks who couldn't lead themselves not alone others with far more experience.

    Experience is everything. You have to earn it you can't just buy it from the naafi.

    It doesn't matter what branch you are in that's complete bollocks to me. I am allowed my opinion therefore I can comment.
  11. As already stated. The job an Aircrewman conducts in the air can be done by an AB or a WO Acmn. The job role doesn't change. (Experience does I admit.)

    The rank thing comes into play on the ground when conducting your life as a Senior Rate. The time served would show.

    A Tiff has some 3 years under his belt before he gets crossed hooks.

    How long would the training be for a DE Acmn?
  12. You have all simply confirmed the view that many ex crewmen and current serving RN personnel including many senior Officers in the ivory tower in Portsmouth have, which is that an ACMN is primarily a winch man, bit of Nav, load lifting and nothing more. This is where you are all totally wrong.

    SAR ACMN. Secondary/ Respite tour open to any qualified ACMN

    Trained to PARAMEDIC standard (In fact more emergency medical training than our chums in the medical branch)

    Qualified Aircraft navigator for MCT role by day and on NVG

    Then winch man / winch operator.

    Commando ACMN

    Qualified Aircraft navigator for tactical insertion/ extraction by day/night on NVG

    Front line troop lift and tactical support (Getting shot at day in day out in the STAN and then coming home then re-role to IRAQ) Whilst maintaining proficiency for their Arctic role.

    Then winch man / winch operator.

    Merlin ACMN

    RADAR Operator surface and air plot compilation

    Data link Manager (TPS Role)

    AIS Operator

    ESM operator

    EO/IR device operator

    Active and Passive SONAR Operator and analyst (No SCR to fall back on) and for any ex pinger’s we are talking systems far more complex than 195. LAPADS and 902A.

    Left hand seat cockpit duties when qualified including night deck and dunking profiles. Not just manual throttles.


    Medium Lift


    3 Years training from start to award of combat ready status (ish) Compared to 6 weeks for an OM then 12 weeks killicks course and what a 20 week PO course including leadership. The only training in between, being keeping the ship clean and losing an I-POD to an Iranian. Many apply few succeed due to varying factors and the only way to attract and keep people of the right calibre is to offer incentives above and beyond what other branches and services can offer. This individual although part of a crew has to constantly think for himself and make accountable decisions with consequences that simply do not happen at LH/ JNR PO level in many other branches. Those that are similar have fast track promotion structures. LH would be a training rate PO the staple and as usual promotion up by selection. So you can see many will stagnate at PO level trying for the few CPO and on places.

    Professional Aviator spine is now up and running for ACMN this gives volunteer ACMN an option to have automatic service to 55 and essentially a pensionable flying pay. This equates to a CPO leaving at 55 with a minimum of 5 years on PA a pension of approximately 95k lump sum and 30 ish k per-annum pension, index linked from day 1. Again this was introduced as a retention measure due to the high failure rate in recruiting and training. I hope you can see that the comparisons between this and some of the more sedentary branches are difficult to make in terms of training cost and what you need as the basic product to train and I am not being pompous here it’s just the nature of what the person has to do when trained and the level of supervision that he will receive in the air which is essentially none in many of the roles.

    You can argue the toss all you like about the merits etc but I can not be botherd. It will happen and not before time, so dry your eyes.
    • Like Like x 1
  14. I think the leadership point is almost irrelevent too. If the guys are going to be PO's as standard, they won't have any real subordinates on their squadron/flights anyway and at worst they'll be at the same sort of experience level as Officer corps aircrew of equal time served.
  15. For someone that 'can not be bothered' you certainly laboured a point!


    No one will disagree that todays aircrewman is a different beast. All we can relate to is when we were flying in our ancient rotary flying machines. Simple fact of life.
  16. Direct entry Aircraft Controllers starts in November.

    Once that project is proven I believe ACMN is next.............
  17. Avoiding action, will direct entry aircrewman have to take FATs? Also, does anyone have a ballpark date of when DE aircrew will start?
  18. Good question.

    In the late 70's aircrewmen had to attend Biggen Hill for selection. That involved many - many tests, some at the time never made sense, but later the significance emerged. However - NO FLYING!

    Aircrewmen in Sea Kings had to qualify as manual throttle qualified in case they needed to assist the pilots in the event of a pilot becoming incapicated and the computers playing up!! With the modern helicopters I would not have a clue as to the crewies involvement in such an emergency.

    It may be that if GCSE's and DE play a part in the modern aircrewman, then maybe a 2nd pilot role could play a part. (This bit more being in my mind than based upon fact.)
  19. Do the RAF NC aircrew take FATs? If they do, my guess is navy aircrew take them as well.
  20. Yes, they do, and it's been known for an RAF NCA applicant to do very well on the FATs, get offered an interview for officer and end up with a pilot place at Cranwell.

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