'Direct Disobedience' result.

#1
<< ...A Royal Navy medic has been sentenced to seven months' detention after refusing to undergo rifle training...

Leading Medical Assistant Michael Lyons, 25, of Plymouth, said he had a "moral objection" to bearing arms and the war in Afghanistan.

He was found guilty of disobeying a lawful order, at a court martial...

Lyons, who had been based at HMS Drake in Plymouth, was also demoted to the rank of able seaman and dismissed from the service...>>

BBC News - Navy Afghan war objector Michael Lyons detained


IMHO anything less would have been a genuine case for loading up the outrage bus.
 
#2
<< ...A Royal Navy medic has been sentenced to seven months' detention after refusing to undergo rifle training...

Leading Medical Assistant Michael Lyons, 25, of Plymouth, said he had a "moral objection" to bearing arms and the war in Afghanistan.

He was found guilty of disobeying a lawful order, at a court martial...


Lyons, who had been based at HMS Drake in Plymouth, was also demoted to the rank of able seaman and dismissed from the service...>>

BBC News - Navy Afghan war objector Michael Lyons detained


IMHO anything less would have been a genuine case for loading up the outrage bus.
Concur......
 
#3
I have no argument with the sentence but fear that he may become the hero of those who would rather no wars were ever fought for whatever reason.
Tomorrows headline:- Naval Conscientious Objector Jailed for refusing to go to Afghanistan
 

janner

MIA
Book Reviewer
#5
How can you have this type of moral objection once the shilling is taken? Are you saying that all service personnel should be allowed to pick which wars they will fight?

In my opinion he should be required to return any pay received since joining. No doubt he would have been happy to keep serving as long as it didn't involve war zones.
 
#6
IMO, for what it's worth, he got what he deserved. I was always told I was a serviceman first and foremost, my branch was incidental.

But I can see the liberal press and tree hugger groups rubbing their hands with glee.

Any takers on someone like Cherie Bliar jumping in with an appeal, no fees obviously!!
 
#7
To be fair on the fat scab lifter, I'm pretty sure running around with a rifle in Afghanistan wasn't in the brochure for the Submarine Service. Still, I'm sure none of us ever complained when they made us wash plates in DHP for months at a time.



Suck it up fatty, don't go near the Scottish Pongos in the showers at Colchester.
 
G

guestm

Guest
#8
To be fair on the fat scab lifter, I'm pretty sure running around with a rifle in Afghanistan wasn't in the brochure for the Submarine Service. Still, I'm sure none of us ever complained when they made us wash plates in DHP for months at a time.
It wasn't, neither was laying waste to a third world country and fragging kids for no reason other than shits and gongs. As far as I was aware the RN told me I was going to be part of Betty's own baby rescuing IRA punching world police, not God's crusading bastard squad.
 
#9
It wasn't, neither was laying waste to a third world country and fragging kids for no reason other than shits and gongs. As far as I was aware the RN told me I was going to be part of Betty's own baby rescuing IRA punching world police, not God's crusading bastard squad.
Halleluiah, praise the lord and pass the ammunition.
Do you have a sprinkling of sympathy for the Codeine Kid then MLP?
 
G

guestm

Guest
#10
Halleluiah, praise the lord and pass the ammunition.
Do you have a sprinkling of sympathy for the Codeine Kid then MLP?
I do a little bit, yes. I'm not defending him, but a part of me does see why. Rather than type it out again, here's my reasoning from an earlier thread:

For my ten penneth. I think I said this in the Glenton thread. We all join up with amazing ideas of being a force for good and with every intention of wanting to fight. You grow up, you look a little deeper and your attitude changes. There is no sense in saying "You signed up and knew what you were getting yourself into." At that age you believe every thing this countries forces do is right and just.

This lad. Didn't agree with what is going on in Afghanistan. He then had the minerals to say he didn't want to be part of it and take all the shit that came with it because that is what he believed. Ultimately he has thrown away his career but believes he has done the right thing.

Me. Don't agree with what is going on in Afghanistan. Didn't have the courage to say so and went twice choosing the money, career and sense of duty over my morals. That's duty as in I have taken the money for over a decade and will repay that investment, not duty as this is the right thing to do.

In my mind, that makes him a better man than me.
What is right and wrong is in the eye of the beholder. Whilst what we are asked to be doing in Afghanistan skirts the limits of being an unlawful order. The ethics of the whole conflict is muddy at best. When I joined, NI was the only issue and I was sure that any future conflict would be in the defence of my country or our dependants. Not the forceful imposition of a way of life upon some country picked to be the eye for an eye. I never envisioned I would be sent to a country to smash up the landscape where I would not be given a clear idea of what our aim was. Nor be told to ignore civcas as an unfortunate by product of the greater good.

I didn't join to be a political pawn. I joined because I had nothing else and genuinely thought I could make a difference and do some good. When push came to shove, despite me disagreeing with what we were doing, I had to choose between the career I'd forged for half my life or my morals. I chose to take the cash and security over my moral beliefs. I now have to live with that. We certainly DO NOT join to be told what to do regardless, we are not stupid drones. If I could have made a difference in BOS I would, if I could have helped in Sierra Leone, I would. If someone ordered me into Zimbabwe tomorrow I would go and be proud of myself for doing something good for once. But those glorious ideals and visions we had when we joined are smashed when we get there and are hamstrung / find out the truth. There is no way on earth you can expect everyone to blindly follow orders simply because we signed up, everyone signs up for differing reasons.

Some people have spent 15 - 20 years CASEXing / BATUSing their lives away and are suddenly asked to get involved in a land war with no clear point and massive civcas. They then have to decide between career and their moral beliefs. Picture the scene, object and bang out, losing the pension you have acquired and embrace unemployment with a family to feed or do as you are told and endure sleepless nights and guilt that will last you a lifetime.

We can bang on for hours about taking the Queen's shilling and do as we are told but it's nowhere near as cut and dry as that. We are being asked to do bizarre things with people's lives with no clear aim. If it was genuinely in defence of our nation or way of life, no issue, but it isn't. This is not conventional defence of our country nor our way of life.
 
#11
MLP, I understand where you are coming from, I also understand those who have serious misgivings but have not spoken out, it does not make them a lesser man.
 
#12
I honestly don't give a shit whether he refused or not, if thats the way he thinks good on him. Takes balls to refuse.
Unless he is a coward, then rot his festering eyes.
I'm a bit concerned about this Queens shilling you lot are on about, I never got one, where is it?
 
#13
I do a little bit, yes. I'm not defending him, but a part of me does see why....
I think his argument is fundamentally flawed. Amongst his claims, he says he disagrees with the political motivation for British Forces in Afghanistan, which is, quite simply, nothing to do with his morals or ethics. If he realised he did not want to do the bidding of our masters, he should have put his notice in. He didn't display 'minerals', but naivety, if he wanted to follow his conscience, then the people to talk to would have been his DO, his Div SR, or a chaplain. His DO and Div SR might not have been receptive, I'll grant, but I have yet to meet a chaplain who wouldn't have been able to help him. The worst person to see about this, and the worst time, would be a WO1 GI on the range.
 
#14
He disobeyed a direct order, which is why he's in the shit, had he done things by the book, ie. request to see his DO..CO etc etc, then he would have been able to sort the situation out. So he was either naive or wanted to make a cnut of himself.
I agree with his views on the Afghan situation, 2 months after I left the mob, they tried to recall me to go to GW2, I'd just started my own company, I couldn't even get life insurance to cover my mortgage from anyone, (Bomb disposal diver going to war ?? no fecking chance), even PAX refused to take me. I told the desk officer that I wouldn't be interested in going, he quoted the 1974 Reserve Armed Forces Act etc etc, and I could be imprisoned for not reporting when ordered. Luckily I knew this desk officer personally and he knew me...so when I told him that if he tried any of that shit I'd burn his house down...my paper work suddenly went to the bottom of his in-tray !!!

One of the reasons that the Italians were percieved as being cowards was because the average Italian serviceman had no confidence in the politicians or senior officers who they thought of as corrupt and self serving, they also didn't believe in teaming up with the Germans. Bliar with his part time Defence Secretary, and now Camerbaffoon with his ridiculous ideas for the armed forces have done huge damage the morale of the armed forces, pay freeze, equipment shortages, less manpower, wars that cannot be won, people dying needlessly for reasons that defy reasoned logic...the only thing that is newsworthy about this medic is that somehow he's been the only one.
 
#15
He disobeyed a direct order, which is why he's in the shit, had he done things by the book, ie. request to see his DO..CO etc etc, then he would have been able to sort the situation out. So he was either naive or wanted to make a cnut of himself.
I agree with his views on the Afghan situation, 2 months after I left the mob, they tried to recall me to go to GW2, I'd just started my own company, I couldn't even get life insurance to cover my mortgage from anyone, (Bomb disposal diver going to war ?? no fecking chance), even PAX refused to take me. I told the desk officer that I wouldn't be interested in going, he quoted the 1974 Reserve Armed Forces Act etc etc, and I could be imprisoned for not reporting when ordered. Luckily I knew this desk officer personally and he knew me...so when I told him that if he tried any of that shit I'd burn his house down...my paper work suddenly went to the bottom of his in-tray !!!

One of the reasons that the Italians were percieved as being cowards was because the average Italian serviceman had no confidence in the politicians or senior officers who they thought of as corrupt and self serving, they also didn't believe in teaming up with the Germans. Bliar with his part time Defence Secretary, and now Camerbaffoon with his ridiculous ideas for the armed forces have done huge damage the morale of the armed forces, pay freeze, equipment shortages, less manpower, wars that cannot be won, people dying needlessly for reasons that defy reasoned logic...the only thing that is newsworthy about this medic is that somehow he's been the only one.
You finally posted something I agree with...
 
G

guestm

Guest
#20
I think his argument is fundamentally flawed. Amongst his claims, he says he disagrees with the political motivation for British Forces in Afghanistan, which is, quite simply, nothing to do with his morals or ethics. If he realised he did not want to do the bidding of our masters, he should have put his notice in. He didn't display 'minerals', but naivety, if he wanted to follow his conscience, then the people to talk to would have been his DO, his Div SR, or a chaplain. His DO and Div SR might not have been receptive, I'll grant, but I have yet to meet a chaplain who wouldn't have been able to help him. The worst person to see about this, and the worst time, would be a WO1 GI on the range.
I don't disagree, but I do have a modicum of sympathy for him.
 

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