Desecration of HMS Repulse and HMS PoW War Graves

chinamatelot

Lantern Swinger
#61
RabC said:
PTP
I have been in touch with a Thai diving organisation who are diving on the site and have had them publish a reply. I am out on a limb in this part of the world but believe as ex RN and a rec diver I have done and will continue to do my bit, maybe the guys here need a link to the ARRSE topic on this situation.
Bump

RabC - if you have any links, let me know. I would like to see what the latest is. I trawled ARRSE but missed the thread.

Thanks,

China.
 
#62
Re: How can this be allowed to happen?

Seadog said:
While wishing that diver matey and chums run out of air or meet with a hungry shark next dive let's not start ranting, let's be constructive.

Who do we tell and what can be done.
Constructive comment. stay out of the water demand valve failure... dead easy.

There are things in the water that have not yet been catalogued.. lets hope they find them :w00t: :thumright:
 
#63
Re: How can this be allowed to happen?

PINCH said:
Seadog said:
While wishing that diver matey and chums run out of air or meet with a hungry shark next dive let's not start ranting, let's be constructive.

Who do we tell and what can be done.
Constructive comment. stay out of the water demand valve failure... dead easy.

There are things in the water that have not yet been catalogued.. lets hope they find them :w00t: :thumright:
Shhhh! I'm guessing PTP and Dozy are working on a cunning plan like they did for Ashtead. In the meantime, word has already reached the Navy League, the US Navy Veterans' Association and the Veterans of Foreign Wars in the States and I'm sure they are not best pleased. Slowly, slowly, catchee monkey.
 
#64
chinamatelot said:
RabC said:
PTP
I have been in touch with a Thai diving organisation who are diving on the site and have had them publish a reply. I am out on a limb in this part of the world but believe as ex RN and a rec diver I have done and will continue to do my bit, maybe the guys here need a link to the ARRSE topic on this situation.
Bump

RabC - if you have any links, let me know. I would like to see what the latest is. I trawled ARRSE but missed the thread.

Thanks,

China.
Here's the link China, it's all gone quiet on Arrse too. http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=75192/highlight=prince+wales+repulse.html
Any news from your trip to Malaysia??
 

chinamatelot

Lantern Swinger
#65
charlieoppo said:
chinamatelot said:
RabC said:
PTP
I have been in touch with a Thai diving organisation who are diving on the site and have had them publish a reply. I am out on a limb in this part of the world but believe as ex RN and a rec diver I have done and will continue to do my bit, maybe the guys here need a link to the ARRSE topic on this situation.
Bump

RabC - if you have any links, let me know. I would like to see what the latest is. I trawled ARRSE but missed the thread.

Thanks,

China.
Here's the link China, it's all gone quiet on Arrse too. http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=75192/highlight=prince+wales+repulse.html
Any news from your trip to Malaysia??
Thanks Charlieoppo - I'm waiting on an address of a senior minister. Just trying to find out if anyone is co-ordinating this or letting it drop. If someone is running with it, then I can pass on the information.

China
 
#66
chinamatelot said:
charlieoppo said:
chinamatelot said:
RabC said:
PTP
I have been in touch with a Thai diving organisation who are diving on the site and have had them publish a reply. I am out on a limb in this part of the world but believe as ex RN and a rec diver I have done and will continue to do my bit, maybe the guys here need a link to the ARRSE topic on this situation.
Bump

RabC - if you have any links, let me know. I would like to see what the latest is. I trawled ARRSE but missed the thread.

Thanks,

China.
Here's the link China, it's all gone quiet on Arrse too. http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=75192/highlight=prince+wales+repulse.html
Any news from your trip to Malaysia??
Thanks Charlieoppo - I'm waiting on an address of a senior minister. Just trying to find out if anyone is co-ordinating this or letting it drop. If someone is running with it, then I can pass on the information.

China
Chinamatelot,

Please see my earlier post:
http://www.rumration.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=8942/postdays=0/postorder=asc/start=48.html

The HMS Repulse Association is campaigning for change. The difficulty lies in the fact that the diving is taking place outside British territorial waters and therefore outside the jurisdiction of HM Government. International law provides limited scope for action. Part of the problem is addressing the legitimate rights of divers to dive non-war graves with their willingness to comply with any legal or moral obligations that are placed upon them, and the wilingness of the Thai authorities to police and prosecute divers where the law has been violated.

The divers, who have been heavily criticised, are a firm offering diving expeds to the wreck of HMS Repulse to tourists. They had a film of their actions which, until the HMS Repulse Association asked them to remove it, was partially available to view on their website. The Georgitsis video material (which I have seen) clearly illustrates their violation of a war grave and you can clearly see human remains including a skull. A copy of the DVD material provided by the HMS Repulse Association is in the House of Commons Library.

The best course of action is for ex-Servicemen to contact (most effectivly with a physical meeting) their local MP and persistently lobby for change, bearing in mind the fact that the territorial waters lie outside the ambit of domestic law.

AAC.
 

chinamatelot

Lantern Swinger
#67
Always_a_Civvy said:
chinamatelot said:
charlieoppo said:
chinamatelot said:
RabC said:
PTP
I have been in touch with a Thai diving organisation who are diving on the site and have had them publish a reply. I am out on a limb in this part of the world but believe as ex RN and a rec diver I have done and will continue to do my bit, maybe the guys here need a link to the ARRSE topic on this situation.
Bump

RabC - if you have any links, let me know. I would like to see what the latest is. I trawled ARRSE but missed the thread.

Thanks,

China.
Here's the link China, it's all gone quiet on Arrse too. http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=75192/highlight=prince+wales+repulse.html
Any news from your trip to Malaysia??
Thanks Charlieoppo - I'm waiting on an address of a senior minister. Just trying to find out if anyone is co-ordinating this or letting it drop. If someone is running with it, then I can pass on the information.

China
Chinamatelot,

Please see my earlier post:
http://www.rumration.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=8942/postdays=0/postorder=asc/start=48.html

The HMS Repulse Association is campaigning for change. The difficulty lies in the fact that the diving is taking place outside British territorial waters and therefore outside the jurisdiction of HM Government. International law provides limited scope for action. Part of the problem is addressing the legitimate rights of divers to dive non-war graves with their willingness to comply with any legal or moral obligations that are placed upon them, and the wilingness of the Thai authorities to police and prosecute divers where the law has been violated.

The divers, who have been heavily criticised, are a firm offering diving expeds to the wreck of HMS Repulse to tourists. They had a film of their actions which, until the HMS Repulse Association asked them to remove it, was partially available to view on their website. The Georgitsis video material (which I have seen) clearly illustrates their violation of a war grave and you can clearly see human remains including a skull. A copy of the DVD material provided by the HMS Repulse Association is in the House of Commons Library.

The best course of action is for ex-Servicemen to contact (most effectivly with a physical meeting) their local MP and persistently lobby for change, bearing in mind the fact that the territorial waters lie outside the ambit of domestic law.

AAC.
Thanks AAC - question: Is it Thai authorities or Malay authorities that have jurisdiction over the war graves and matters appertaining to them?

My understanding (right or wrong) is that the Malaysian Government would be better placed to deal, if they so wish, with this matter and of course the relevant British Consul.

Since I live in Hong Kong I don't have a local British MP to discuss this with. If we can do something to help from over here, then we will try.

China
 

hammockhead

Lantern Swinger
#68
Both wrecks are in international waters. Dives generally go from the east coast of Malaya or Singapore, though I imagine some must come from Thailand.

Really, it should be the Governments of Malaysia and Singapore that take action.
 
#69
hammockhead said:
Both wrecks are in international waters. Dives generally go from the east coast of Malaya or Singapore, though I imagine some must come from Thailand.

Really, it should be the Governments of Malaysia and Singapore that take action.

Possibly Malaysia more than Singapore.


Diving on war graves has always been a problem . Sometimes its excused as long as there are no souvenir collectors . In this case though
it would be hard to police with the wrecks being where they are.
The wrecks by international law still belong to the UK and also I believe that to dive on any known wreck the persons should first obtain permission from the relevant 'owner'. However there are always people that disregard formalities .

Hope something can be done about it -----especially when there are survivors still living.


:nemo: :nemo:
 

chinamatelot

Lantern Swinger
#70
That's what I thought - am trying to get to the relevant authorities to raise this issue. I didn't want to be a sole contact point if other members of this or ARRSE have already started correspondence with the relevant British Consuls.
 
#71
I am posting this in case they delete their admission that they did in fact penetrate the hull, take pictures from within and post them for sale on the internet.
I thought by posting it here it would be safe from deletion and any attempt to deny it took place.

Wrecks of the South China Sea, 23-30 April 2008

http://forum.5thd-x.com/viewtopic.php?p=15594#15594

Bubbleblower

As you can see from the snippet below, Posting the image was a mistake by my web guy. I already posted an apology, the day after the image was inadvertently posted. It was taken down immediately after it was brought to my attention. I also removed all video of it from my DVD. So let's try to leave our difference of opinion there.

Andrew Georgitsis

>>>>>Posted aug 17, 2007

Guys

When we uploaded (put up) the new photo section on shutterfly, we grabbed them from a backup folder of the images in large format and accidentally put up a photo from inside the HMS Repulse of one of the unfortunate soldiers. I had agreed a while back that the photo was distasteful and I thought we had completely discarded. Obviously it was accidentally upload again and brought to my attention this morning. My humblest apologies and I have personally since removed it. You may noticed a bunch of unnecessary "HATE" mail on the forum which I have removed and ban the senders and will continue to do over the next few days. This is truly unnecessary. I do agree the image is distasteful and certainly should not have being uploaded. We made a mistake and I do apologize. I have taken care of it.

Andrew Georgitsis">>>>>
If the shit should hit the fan then we can at least present the above.
 
#72
Hi, this is a message I posted on rumration on the 21st September 2006. The year has gone very quick.

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:52 pm Post subject: maritime war graves

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am the current secretary for the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse Survivors Association, having taken over the role when my father, Kenneth Byrne passed away.

As some of you may be aware divers regularly dive the wrecks. Many have entered the ships and taken videos and photos of the inside. Some of the photos are on the Internet and show human remains. We believe that any war grave should be protected whether on land or sea, in British or International waters.

Please find below a message I have posted on our Website in response to other postings. www.forcez-survivors.org.uk If anybody could assist us with this please contact me.


My father served on HMS Prince of Wales and was 17 years and one month when the Prince of Wales was sunk; his friend was the same age but did not survive the sinking and still lies with his ship. This is something my father never forgot.

Kevin, you seem to think that most survives do not own a computer or have access to the Internet, your wrong. My father had his first computer at the age of 75, Internet ready. Most survivors have children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren who own computers and are able to simply type in HMS Repulse, you try it, see what comes up!

I have had the pleasure of meeting the L/T Shirley Ward. Her father served on HMS Repulse, she was a baby when her father died. His final resting place is HMS Repulse. Shirley was one of the first persons to inform the association of the activity of divers on the wrecks. When I see a photo, clip of a film on the Internet, for all I know I could be looking at the remains of Shirley’s father, for that matter a father or grandfather of another member of the Association. When you have met these people personally you see a different picture.

What should the association do, keep quiet or to work to try and protect the final resting places of hero’s who died fighting for their country, some of whom were only boys.

I have a duty to report to members anything that is brought to my attention. The matter was again on the agenda for the AGM this year. Again the members voted for the Association to continue to campaign for changes in the law to stop divers entering the ships. This is what we shall do.

Please don’t get me wrong, we do not want to stop divers visiting the ships, BUT PLEASE DO NOT ENTER, PLEASE DO NOT DISTURB THE FINAL RESTING PLACE OF THESE MEN.

We don’t just want this for HMS Repulse or HMS Prince of Wales, we would like this for all maritime war graves, what ever their nationality. If the law is not changed and international agreements set in place, one-day divers will be in HMS Hood and the Bismarck. The Association wants protection for every war grave whether on land or at sea.

This message was also posted on a number of diving website and naval associations worldwide. I did receive some very interesting replies from diving forums, but decided that replying would be a waste of my time. (they probably would not be able to understand the big words anyway)

Since then we have been to the House of Lords and have had an article printed in a national newspaper, the fight goes on. We will continue to monitor the actions of these persons, (if you can call them that) and the support that has been shown here and on Arrse is encouraging.
 
#73
Princeof Wales & Repulse

Hi all
First time of posting, so it's best i introduce myself prior to seeking some help.

My father, alive and well, served on HMS Repulse. I now have the honour of being the first non survivor to become chairman of the HMS Prince of Wales & HMS Repulse association; full membership to which is available to all.

After consultation with our webmaster, Andy Wade and association secretary, Hannah Rickard, we've decided to ratchet up the pressure on relevant official departments in order to:
a) try and halt the actions of Georgitsis et al: and their intrusion dives on the ships, via international legislation which does currently exist under the merchant shipping act and:
b) ensure that the same form of protection is afforded all ships in international waters that we in the UK decree to be 'war graves' eg they have status under the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986.

We need your help and contacts - can those willing to offer a little of their time to assist in this please email me direct on [email protected]

Thanks in anticipation.

Alan
PS you'll be interested to learn I actualy phoned Georgitsis a few months ago and gave him a lot of home truths - trouble is the thing that's going to get to him is public contempt in the US.
 

chinamatelot

Lantern Swinger
#76
Re: Princeof Wales & Repulse

alanm said:
Hi all
First time of posting, so it's best i introduce myself prior to seeking some help.

My father, alive and well, served on HMS Repulse. I now have the honour of being the first non survivor to become chairman of the HMS Prince of Wales & HMS Repulse association; full membership to which is available to all.

After consultation with our webmaster, Andy Wade and association secretary, Hannah Rickard, we've decided to ratchet up the pressure on relevant official departments in order to:
a) try and halt the actions of Georgitsis et al: and their intrusion dives on the ships, via international legislation which does currently exist under the merchant shipping act and:
b) ensure that the same form of protection is afforded all ships in international waters that we in the UK decree to be 'war graves' eg they have status under the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986.

We need your help and contacts - can those willing to offer a little of their time to assist in this please email me direct on [email protected]

Thanks in anticipation.

Alan
PS you'll be interested to learn I actualy phoned Georgitsis a few months ago and gave him a lot of home truths - trouble is the thing that's going to get to him is public contempt in the US.
Alan,

Timely post. From my previous emails on this thread I was trying to find out who might be running with this.

Email on its way to you - hope this helps.

Best regards,

Chinamatelot.
 
#77
Perhaps it would be worth linking up with US naval veterans and getting Georgitsis' activities associated in the US public mind with with the desecration of the graves of US veterans, which it is, after all, equivalent to. It might also be worth trying to get some senior clergymen involved with the campaign - especially Anglican Bishops (useful in the House of Lords) and try to get endorsement from senior Bishops in the RC church.
 
#78
Received a letter from the wife's great uncle Eric (Prince of Wales survivor). The letter contained the phrase "Bloody outrageous" which one feels is slightly under stated.
 
#79
A Royal British Legion has just opened up in my neck of the woods, I'll get down there and drum up some support. As it's just started I'm not sure of their membership numbers but hopefully we'll can get some usefull contacts to pass on to Alan.
 

SaladDodger

Lantern Swinger
#80
Reported in The Telegraph today, sickening business still going on....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...hips-being-stripped-bare-for-scrap-metal.html

<script height="258px" width="460px" src="http://player.ooyala.com/iframe.js#...7f292e522&ec=N3ank2cTqSsSAB7MCLZ6oW8owRBeX9VH"></script>

The dull reverberations of the underwater explosions are clearly audible from the surface. The scavengers have returned, laying home-made charges to break up the hulls of two of the most celebrated British warships of the age, sunk in December 1941 and the last resting places of more than 830 Royal Navy sailors.


No-one would countenance such desecration on land. But the wrecks of the HMS Repulse and HMS Prince of Wales, just a few miles off the coast of Malaysia, are now being stripped bare for their scrap metal. Recognised war graves, they are disappearing, with the damage intensifying in recent months, according to those who know the wrecks and try their best to preserve them.

"We noticed the wrecks were being salvaged when we dived them in May 2013," Stuart Shaw, who operates from the TechThailand dive company, told The Telegraph. "They removed the remaining propellors from Repulse and the four propellors from the Prince of Wales sometime between September 2012 and May 2013."
 

Similar threads

Latest Threads

Top