Deepcut... the saga continues

I'm afraid the as the Army has succesfully muddied the watres on this one with the perhaps unwitting collusion of the local plod, that a public enquiry is unlikely to produce any more info than we have already. Unless some one who has real evidence comes forward and tells the truth I suspect we will never get the real truth out of this, to the Armys eternal shame.

As to the bullying to be fair some of it is just the normal group funtions of sorting out the pecking order and who is who. It is normal, natural and will always happen, and rarely does any real harm. You will see it in almost any group, a bit of black catting, a bit of baitng a bit of fishing, just till the newcomer settle in and makes his mark. In young adults this quite often involves physical horseplay as well. In groups though it can get out of hand and cause problems and it will always be a problem for the instructor to know when the line must be drawn. The predatory bullying especially by instructors is wholly another thing and needs constant attention to prevent. Here the bully is intent on creating pain and suffring for his/her own satisfaction.

Peter
 

come_the_day

Lantern Swinger
Maxi - Sorting out the pecking order is ok, then, if it means taking a poor Scots lad who has never been out of his village, has never had the advantage of being able to take a daily hot bath, let alone think that it was necessary, parading him through the block to the showers and scrubbing down to bleeding skin with a floor scrubber to prove what "clean" is. This is one of the memories that makes me ashamed of my basic training stint, but as long as it did me no harm it's acceptable.

I am sure you didn't mean that, but the instructors were nowhere near these events and it's much more likely that the bullying is by peers, rather than the instructors in my opinion.

I am equally sure that there will be wizened old farts out there who do feel that they were improved by this kind of senseless macho behaviour, but you are wrong! Good basic training should be hard, but fair. I have no problem with the GI whose mantra was that he carried his whistle on a chain "because no shithouse is complete without a chain", but the vulnerable young is not a new phenomenon. It was kept under wraps in my training days and some of the bullying new-joiners no doubt went on to become either model citizens or more dangerous bullies at higher rates.

That we suffered it does not make it right and if the opportunity arrives to stop it, alleluia to that.
 
Bullying has never had a place anywhere, firm discipline has. There is no substitute for leading by example. Training recruits is a great job, even though the powers that be won't let you do it the way it should be done. Teach these people in such a way that they would follow you to hell and back, and teach bullies that there is always someone meaner than them (unfortunately there is only one form of counselling appropriate for bullies, and it works..... scudding).
 

PragmaticJen

Badgeman
I am having a problem with something guys... forgive me if this has already been answered somewhere else but

Who issued and who signed for the ammunition that resulted in the deaths of these young cadets?? Has anyone taken responsibility for that?
 

Mad-Dog

Badgeman
PragmaticJen said:
I am having a problem with something guys... forgive me if this has already been answered somewhere else but

Who issued and who signed for the ammunition that resulted in the deaths of these young cadets?? Has anyone taken responsibility for that?

Not too sure where you are wanting to go with a comment like that!
Are you saying that the person issuing should be facing charges?, That they are responsible for the deaths of these young soldiers?

Jeez,, next you will be blaming the chefs for providing breakfast which gave them the energy to turn-to that day!

There is always a chain of event that leads up to a tragedy but, that chain has to break somewhere,, yeah, maybe the soldiers were visibly unstable and should not have been in possession of a rifle on those days, but how do you think that would of gone?

"I'm sorry Pte Blogs, thank you for turning-to this evening, but I'm not going to issue you with a weapon and ammunition because I think you are unstable due to the level of bullying that is going on in these barracks and I suspect you may try and shoot yourself tonight"

Nah,, I don't think it quite went like that either!

This country is following the US in it's "Blame Culture", somebody is to blame and we want compensation, well it's easier than that!, The UK's armed forces are stretched to their limits and we now accept any young numpty to serve even if they are not strong enough to take harsh discipline!
Nobody really knows what happened to these "kids", at least if they do they are not speaking up, but the reality of the matter is, the army is a tough world to live in and some kids don't hit the mark!
 
Mad-Dog said:
PragmaticJen said:
I am having a problem with something guys... forgive me if this has already been answered somewhere else but

Who issued and who signed for the ammunition that resulted in the deaths of these young cadets?? Has anyone taken responsibility for that?

Not too sure where you are wanting to go with a comment like that!
Are you saying that the person issuing should be facing charges?, That they are responsible for the deaths of these young soldiers?

Jeez,, next you will be blaming the chefs for providing breakfast which gave them the energy to turn-to that day!

There is always a chain of event that leads up to a tragedy but, that chain has to break somewhere,, yeah, maybe the soldiers were visibly unstable and should not have been in possession of a rifle on those days, but how do you think that would of gone?

"I'm sorry Pte Blogs, thank you for turning-to this evening, but I'm not going to issue you with a weapon and ammunition because I think you are unstable due to the level of bullying that is going on in these barracks and I suspect you may try and shoot yourself tonight"

Nah,, I don't think it quite went like that either!

This country is following the US in it's "Blame Culture", somebody is to blame and we want compensation, well it's easier than that!, The UK's armed forces are stretched to their limits and we now accept any young numpty to serve even if they are not strong enough to take harsh discipline!
Nobody really knows what happened to these "kids", at least if they do they are not speaking up, but the reality of the matter is, the army is a tough world to live in and some kids don't hit the mark!

At last someone with a realsitic outlook, hit the nail right on the head mate...
 

PragmaticJen

Badgeman
Ok! Ok! point taken ...

So... they just topped themselves...nasty shite but probablyy true.
There are no pollie's arse's to cover...I do believe however that perce hierarchies tried to brush these incidents under the carpet as it would effect their reports.
As for the RMP's they would have been better off getting Noddy or the key stone cops. :roll:

Endof!
 
There is a thin line between bullying and the levels of hard discipline required by the Armed Forces and getting this right is all about culture and leadership. Having spent over 4 years as a DO and instructor in RN traiing estabishments in the 90s, my view is that this is the responsibility of the leadership at Deepcut - from the CO, senior management and mid-management (jun officers and WOs); but the buck for me stops with the CO. They should have a finger on the pulse and should spot NCOs who haven't got this balance right and are bullying/abusing recruits - it's the COs job to set the tone and culture of his training establishment and ensure his management team follow thorugh - blaming this on a NCO doesn't wash as this was a sytimatic trend not an isolated incident.......there were too many deaths at Deepcut in too short a period for there not to be cause for major concern.

Bullying and/or abuse can never be justified. Young recruits deserve full protection from it. How could you ever expect the required levels of commitment and professionalism from people if theyare treated like animals.

One probelm the Army have over the RN is the way charges are brought against soliders and the way they are processed. The RN system might not be perfect but it is better. I remember an incident at Collingwood where the DCO (Lt Cdr) stept on a recruits bear foot during rounds. The lad made a complaint and there was a court martial in which he was convicted of assult and lost 5 years seniority.....totally deserved in my opinion. I also saw a senior rates pulled up for crossing the line reguarly. My point in all of this is that I don't think this level of abuse could happen to the same extent in the RN mainly because we have a better system and a better culture of fairness and respect.

Another point if I may - my father-in-law is a senior Police Officer in Surrey and the 'rumour' there is that the Chief Constable was 'nobbled' by a 4 star in the Army to 'calm things down for the public interest'.......aparently the Chief formally cautioned him and asked him to be more explicite.....to which he backed right down. Remember, this was not a murder investigation.

I stongly belive that there must be an full open and public inquiry....this will be resisted by all the armed forces but the top brass in the army won't deliver the required changes to thier system unless the feel a bit of pain. The other reason is, of course, more emotive and that is that the families totally deserve this action.
 
Another thought here is the copycat option. LOts of young people copy their peers and this can be seen in the news all the time even with suicides. I remember at Collingrad when they made it legal to be a brown hatter or carpet muncher, some of the girls thought it would be great to act like lezzers and cuddle up during evening rounds and get a notorious rep.... it worked and then lo and behold, it started happening a lot. These girls were no more lesbian than I am diplomatic, but the point is they were copying each other, it spread like wildfire.
So maybe one pongo topped himself with his rifle and it sows the seed in the already disturbed mind of another suicide inclined person. I have also come across suicidal types in the RN but these young pups aren't walking around unsupervised with live ammo (normaly).
You can put all the safeguards in place that you like, discipline people and try to babysit them 24 hrs a day, but the bottom line is, if it is not a cry for help and they really want to do themselves... they will.
Sad but true.
 
D

Deleted 493

Guest
Lingyai said:
Another thought here is the copycat option. LOts of young people copy their peers and this can be seen in the news all the time even with suicides. I remember at Collingrad when they made it legal to be a brown hatter or carpet muncher, some of the girls thought it would be great to act like lezzers and cuddle up during evening rounds and get a notorious rep.... it worked and then lo and behold, it started happening a lot. These girls were no more lesbian than I am diplomatic, but the point is they were copying each other, it spread like wildfire.
So maybe one pongo topped himself with his rifle and it sows the seed in the already disturbed mind of another suicide inclined person. I have also come across suicidal types in the RN but these young pups aren't walking around unsupervised with live ammo (normaly).
You can put all the safeguards in place that you like, discipline people and try to babysit them 24 hrs a day, but the bottom line is, if it is not a cry for help and they really want to do themselves... they will.
Sad but true.

So, because a few lasses try on a practical joke to bend rules and intimidate, it follows that other young people will slot themselves in a lemming-like manner?

You should write a book. Honest. ******* hilarious.

Levers
 
Top