Deepcut... the saga continues

Unbelieveable, methinks as I read the Sunday Times at work today.( http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-2103692,00.html )(10 paras down) it makes interesting reading. I was bemused to read that an ex-Pongo Captain, rejoicing in the name of Radford, feels he is being scapegoated by senior officers. It appears he may have verbally abused Pte.Benton before he topped himself. Today's Times provides more detail ( http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,170-2104866,00.html ). Radford appears to have given an interview to the Mail on Sunday, in which he complains that the Army didn't train him properly how to instruct young recruits. As he is not an ex-Guards officer perhaps he ought to have applied a bit of common sense, given the extra-sensitivity of today's recruits?

I am intrigued: verbal abuse in the armed forces? Shouting at recruits? Surely not! :wink:
What must young nozzers think about their elders reading stuff like that? Swearing, shouting, bullying. Of course that sort of thing has never happened in the Andrew... :lol: :lol:
 

PompeySailor

Lantern Swinger
Deepcut is looking like a hand grenade at the moment. Some serving (and ex-) soldiers have been given Army Legal Service points of contact as they are likely to be named in the fallout.

Treatment of recruits is a big thing these days, falling under the auspices of Adult Learning - you have to treat them properly. Apart from anything else, apparently you actually get better results by not hitting them or screaming down their ears. Of course, working under pressure is only tested when you work under pressure, so this little theory has yet to be truly tested!
 
PompeySailor said:
Treatment of recruits is a big thing these days, falling under the auspices of Adult Learning - you have to treat them properly. Apart from anything else, apparently you actually get better results by not hitting them or screaming down their ears. Of course, working under pressure is only tested when you work under pressure, so this little theory has yet to be truly tested!

I like the adult learning bit. I must admit at 16 I thought I was an adult whereas at 15 I knew I was an adult! Now I'm not so sure. :lol:
 

PragmaticJen

Badgeman
mmmmmmmmm! another emotive subject..

I have mixed views about this, on the one hand Army training has to be hard both mentally and physically for a reason. It has to mould the individual, because no matter how tough it is, it is nothing compared to combat. We need a tough, combat effective armed forces, not social workers in uniform!!

However, there is a big difference between toughening up and sadistic bullying! The real issue here is that there should be an open public inquiry into the Deepcut incidents and the general management of that particular establishment and its senior management controls, YES? Something that really puzzles me though is, how that young soldier shot himself 5 times? 8O

I am going to be blunt, does this smack of a cover-up job? I think so!
 
Typical of todays' society, reading into something too deeply.
Every service has dumb asses, just that we are so short staffed that you have to leave sprogs unnatended with loaded weapons...
Bottom line as with all suicides, if they wanna....... let em'
 
PragmaticJen said:
mmmmmmmmm! another emotive subject..

I have mixed views about this, on the one hand Army training has to be hard both mentally and physically for a reason. It has to mould the individual, because no matter how tough it is, it is nothing compared to combat. We need a tough, combat effective armed forces, not social workers in uniform!!

However, there is a big difference between toughening up and sadistic bullying! The real issue here is that there should be an open public inquiry into the Deepcut incidents and the general management of that particular establishment and its senior management controls, YES? Something that really puzzles me though is, how that young soldier shot himself 5 times? 8O

I am going to be blunt, does this smack of a cover-up job? I think so!

I was reading the report yesterday (HC Paper 75, 2005-06 session)*. In figure 5.4 on p111 they actually have a drawing illustrating the entry & exit wounds. The report asserts, in summary, that the wounds could have been sustained by suicide using an SA80 rifle and that they could also have been caused by a third party firing at close proximity to Pte.Benton. The possibility of homicide is ruled out on the basis of testimony by 4 witnesses, named as Privates G, H & J and Corporal F (see para.5.59 on p112). The veracity of Blake's conclusions ultimately rest upon the reliability of the witnesses testimony. It might interest people here that contrary to popular belief, eyewitness testimony is not as reliable as it is made out to be - something I learned at Birkbeck College, when reading criminology during evening classes. Lighting, the time of day, weather, angle from the subject, eyesight, etc are also factors affecting the reliability of what one believes one sees, even from a relativly close proximity, though obviously the further away the greater the risk of errors. I certainly would not convict upon the sole testimony of an eyewitness, even if they were the victim, who themselves can easily, in confusion, make mistakes. This has led to wrongful convictions. The evidence as it stands makes it difficult to reach any satisfactory conclusion. If one is completely open minded one would be inclined to share the report's conclusion that there was no foul play, but that events and practices, or omissions arose which contributed to these deaths. In the end we are not fully cognisant with all the facts, and probably never will be, and are therefore not in any real position to deduce if any homicidal crime was committed. That's my opinion anyway.

The Report is available, free, online at: http://www.deepcutreview.org.uk/index.php?module=Website&action=Text&content=1111359418445-6578
 
I have been (as I am sure we al have) through some tought imes, but we don't consider shooting ourselves.
Any doc or psych will tell you thatthey are not all there (in technical terms)
Anyway as with all mentaly deficient people with guns (columbine/dunblane/ hungerford etc.) I would rather they just sloped off and did themselves instead of innocent people. Of course I feel sorry for the families, but at least these folks didn't take anyone with them.
Would you want to be serving with slightly unhinged personnel ???
Not this callsign....
 

Uncle_Albert

War Hero
PragmaticJen said:
Uncle_Albert said:
PragmaticJen said:
Something that really puzzles me though is, how that young soldier shot himself 5 times?

I can see that happening if the rifle was set to automatic fire.

Not convinced... :roll:

The rate of fire on those things is about 650 rounds per minute, so firing five would take less than half a second. I think it's not beyond the bounds of belief that his hand could have maintained pressure on the trigger for that long.
 

come_the_day

Lantern Swinger
I'm with Jen. An open, transparent public enquiry would have put this question to bed without the need for further investigation at continuing expense, poor PR for the Army and, by association, the other 2 Services.

My time at Raleigh in the early 70s included lots of instances of bullying and racial harassment, carried out by recruits on other recruits and some of this I will be eternally ashamed of, as I stood by while it happened. There's a time for toughness in training, but it's not when kids have just joined and are at the mercy of those that see an opportunity to get in a bit of bullying or sexual predation like that eternal sh*t of a PTI who was prosecuted last year.

The assessment of one of the previous contributors to this thread that these kids killed themselves may turn out to be the case, but have a bit of compassion, their families do not deserve the ignorant dismissal of their legitimate call for openness.
 

Uncle_Albert

War Hero
Any of the "never did me any harm" brigade care to jump in here and say that bullying, racial harassment and sexual predation build better sailors and trying to stamp it out is foolish do-gooding from liberal pinkos?
 

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