Debate on Monday 26th in HoC about 'State of Royal Navy'

#1
On Monday the Opposition in the House of Commons are using one of there allotted days to debate 'the state of the RN' It will start at 12.30pm.
 

Brains

Lantern Swinger
#3
Well it shouldn't take them long to agree what state the RN is in.

Agreeing what they're going to do about it might take a little longer...
 

DingDong

Lantern Swinger
#4
Don't knock this, at least it is going to get a debate in the HoC. Lets see how many times Swiss Tony - Des Browne mentions the unprecedented shipbuilding plan.

Will he answer how six T45s can be in the same place as the 12 T42s used to be able??
 
#5
The precise Motion to be laid before the House is as follows:-

65 STATE OF THE ROYAL NAVY

Mr David Cameron
Dr Liam Fox
Mr Mark Harper
Mr Gerald Howarth
Dr Julian Lewis
Mr Patrick McLoughlin

That this House notes the assessment of the Government’s 1998 Strategic Defence Review that two Future Aircraft Carriers are needed in the post-Cold War world to provide a seaborne base from which British military power can be projected and that a destroyer and frigate fleet of more than 30 ships would be needed to maintain two concurrent medium-scale deployments; views with concern the view expressed by Admiral Sir Alan West, when First Sea Lord in 2004, that the reduction of the destroyer and frigate total from 35 to 25, instead of the 32 promised in the Strategic Defence Review, meant that the country was taking risk on risk; notes with dismay persistent suggestions that six more will be mothballed, leaving an effective destroyer and frigate force of only 19; demands urgent clarification from the Government about their proposal to close Portsmouth or Devonport naval bases and calls upon the Government to provide an assessment of the implications for the long-term strategic vulnerability of the remnants of the surface fleet; sympathises with Admiral Sir Jonathon Band, the current First Sea Lord, that a failure to proceed with the Future Aircraft Carriers, which have still not been ordered though scheduled in 1998 for deployment by 2012 and 2015, would make his position untenable; and calls on the Government to clarify its intention on naval procurement in the forthcoming Comprehensive Spending Review.

source: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmfbusi/70223c01.htm
[scroll down to No.65]
 
#6
DingDong said:
Don't knock this, at least it is going to get a debate in the HoC. Lets see how many times Swiss Tony - Des Browne mentions the unprecedented shipbuilding plan.

Will he answer how six T45s can be in the same place as the 12 T42s used to be able??
The answer they'll give will be that with better hull availability, 9 T45s was assessed to be the same as 12 T42s, and with CEC, that number could be reduced to an "irreducible minimum" of 8 T45s.

But because this corrupt shower of celebrity-obsessed useless Blair cronies and their fantasies about the twin pillars of Gordon's overdraft and the wonderful "skoolsanhospitals" thing, they have to make further cuts, and as the RAF's last remaining capability is decent staffwork and promoting bright people to out-argue the Navy, we have to bear the brunt. God I despair.

I know who I'll be voting for, and it won't be the party of drunks and poo-eaters. Go Linus (IIRC)!
 
#8
We will not get a sniff of what we are promised, as usual. As a force we have been forgotten, I hate to say it but we need to lose a ship to gain any recognition of what we do, the public no longer understands the role of the modern navy or our use to the country (sometimes I stuggle to see it!).
 

ctfairway

Lantern Swinger
#9
Navy Debate

STATE OF THE ROYAL NAVY

Mr David Cameron
Dr Liam Fox
Mr Mark Harper
Mr Gerald Howarth
Dr Julian Lewis
Mr Patrick McLoughlin

That this House notes the assessment of the Government’s 1998 Strategic Defence Review that two Future Aircraft Carriers are needed in the post-Cold War world to provide a seaborne base from which British military power can be projected and that a destroyer and frigate fleet of more than 30 ships would be needed to maintain two concurrent medium-scale deployments; views with concern the view expressed by Admiral Sir Alan West, when First Sea Lord in 2004, that the reduction of the destroyer and frigate total from 35 to 25, instead of the 32 promised in the Strategic Defence Review, meant that the country was taking risk on risk; notes with dismay persistent suggestions that six more will be mothballed, leaving an effective destroyer and frigate force of only 19; demands urgent clarification from the Government about their proposal to close Portsmouth or Devonport naval bases and calls upon the Government to provide an assessment of the implications for the long-term strategic vulnerability of the remnants of the surface fleet; sympathises with Admiral Sir Jonathon Band, the current First Sea Lord, that a failure to proceed with the Future Aircraft Carriers, which have still not been ordered though scheduled in 1998 for deployment by 2012 and 2015, would make his position untenable; and calls on the Government to clarify its intention on naval procurement in the forthcoming Comprehensive Spending Review.
 
#10
Re: Navy Debate

and about bloody time! Is there an election in the offing? a Prime Minister departing? It will take more than words to reverse years of neglect by politicains of both parties.
 
#11
Re: Navy Debate

I can't recall any of the other parties stating what their defence policies may entail. (please feel free to correct me on this one). I suspect that they'll take a leaf out of Labour's book and continue cuts or at best retain the status quo and not commit to any major projects, i.e. Carriers.

But, at least it is coming up for debate and something positive may come out of it.
 
#12
I think we can sum up the state of the Navy in one brief sentance. 'It's fcuked.'

During the forthcoming debate I expect nothing less from this bunch of slimy politicians than to avoid giving clear and concise answers, and to go out of their way to justify the continued reduction of investment in the RN.

Todays politicians are good at talking, that's why they're nothing but a bunch of mass debaters.
 

DingDong

Lantern Swinger
#13
Just_A_Button_Pusher said:
No chance of getting 8 T45's… even no's 5 and 6 are problematic. BAE is talking to the Saudis about buying them if Bliars bunch cancel them.
They're already cutting the steal for no 6 already. T45 doesn't have a CEC, I know this because i've chatted to the Adm who wrote the statement of user requirement.

Bear in mind this. The olympic project is heading for a £6 billion overspend. Ken Livingstone is saying Lonfon council tax payers aren't going to foot the bill, Ruth Kelly is saying that other departments should be paying for the overspend.

Work it out, what costs £3.4b??
 
#14
DingDong said:
They're already cutting the steal for no 6 already. T45 doesn't have a CEC, I know this because i've chatted to the Adm who wrote the statement of user requirement.
Not yet - CEC was deferred in 2005 by 5 years (needless to say that decision has cost MORE money and now made the whole programme unaffordable)
 

Allnightin

Lantern Swinger
#15
No doubt the bit about "the best shipbuilding programme in almost 20 years" will be trotted out from the government benched. As I have pointed out in other threads, much of that capability was ordered under the Tories and the main Labour ordered items are the 6 RoRos and the 4 LSDAs. The question that really needs to be asked is what will be delivered over the next 10 years - that is where the deferral of FSC really shows up.
 
#16
Allnightin said:
No doubt the bit about "the best shipbuilding programme in almost 20 years" will be trotted out from the government benched. As I have pointed out in other threads, much of that capability was ordered under the Tories and the main Labour ordered items are the 6 RoRos and the 4 LSDAs. The question that really needs to be asked is what will be delivered over the next 10 years - that is where the deferral of FSC really shows up.
Very perceptive of you... read bold below.
 
#17
Order of Business said:
Vote Office Bundle - Main Business

1 OPPOSITION DAY (7th allotted day) [Until 10.00 p.m.]

STATE OF THE ROYAL NAVY

Mr David Cameron
Dr Liam Fox
Mr Mark Harper
Mr Gerald Howarth
Dr Julian Lewis
Mr Patrick McLoughlin

That this House notes the assessment of the Government’s 1998 Strategic Defence Review that two Future Aircraft Carriers are needed in the post-Cold War world to provide a seaborne base from which British military power can be projected and that a destroyer and frigate fleet of more than 30 ships would be needed to maintain two concurrent medium-scale deployments; views with concern the view expressed by Admiral Sir Alan West, when First Sea Lord in 2004, that the reduction of the destroyer and frigate total from 35 to 25, instead of the 32 promised in the Strategic Defence Review, meant that the country was taking risk on risk; notes with dismay persistent suggestions that six more will be mothballed, leaving an effective destroyer and frigate force of only 19; demands urgent clarification from the Government about its proposal to close Portsmouth or Devonport naval bases and calls upon the Government to provide an assessment of the implications for the long-term strategic vulnerability of the remnants of the surface fleet; sympathises with Admiral Sir Jonathon Band, the current First Sea Lord, that a failure to proceed with the Future Aircraft Carriers, which have still not been ordered though scheduled in 1998 for deployment by 2012 and 2015, would make his position untenable; and calls on the Government to clarify its intention on naval procurement in the forthcoming Comprehensive Spending Review.

As an Amendment to Mr David Cameron’s proposed Motion (State of the Royal Navy):

The Prime Minister
Mr Secretary Prescott
Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer
Secretary Margaret Beckett
Mr Secretary Browne
Mr Adam Ingram

Derek Twigg

Line 1, leave out from ‘House’ to end and add ‘notes with approval the Government’s very considerable investment in new warship building, including the new Type 45 destroyers, of which two have already been launched, the new Astute class nuclear submarines, the first of which will be launched later this year, and the two Future Aircraft Carriers, which will be the largest ships ever to serve with the Royal Navy; notes that 28 new ships have entered service with the Royal Navy since 1997; views with concern ill-informed and inaccurate suggestions that warships will be ‘mothballed’; and congratulates the Government for its responsible stewardship of the Royal Navy and Royal Marines during a period of extremely high operational tempo.’.
source: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmagenda/ob70226.htm
 
#18
If you wish to follow proceedings after they have arisen but before they are printed in the Commons Hansard and issued at 0800 tomorrow morning, you can access the information via this link. Select the link Read Today in The Chamber.

There are currently NO data as the House only sits today from 1430 onwards. The Debate will not begin until AFTER 1530 at the ealiest, see Summary Agenda below.

Summary Agenda said:
2.30 p.m. Prayers.
Afterwards Oral Questions to the Secretary of State for Defence.
3.30 p.m. Urgent Questions, Ministerial Statements (if any).
Afterwards Opposition Day: (1) State of the Royal Navy; (2) Integrity of the electoral system) (may continue until 10.00 p.m.).
 
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