Daily Mail - Polish workers employed to build new carriers.

Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by digger84, Oct 2, 2010.

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  1. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1317035/Polish-workers-drafted-build-Navys-new-carriers-Migrants-paid-barely-half-British-rate.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

    I have no problem with this story. It’s the good old Daily Mail trying to make a story out of nothing.
    It is Labour's fault we have had to resort to hiring foreign nationals, Instead of promoting people to become apprentices in solid trades such as welding, fitting, turning and other solid trades. They tried to get everyone to go to university to study such meaningful courses as Media, Medieval Studies and other pointless courses.

    Rant over.
  2. Re: Daily Mail - Polish workers employed to build new carrie

    Makes me sad and angry when i read such articles as this Quote "not enough skilled British workers out there to fill the jobs." Tosh!! there are shed loads of skilled workers ( ex Car,Train,Aircraft, Ship,Steel, engineers) through out the country, that have lost there jobs. Now working in other less skilled, and less paid jobs IE Security,Hospitals Order picking, stacking selves, Etc ,Etc, Ps doing a Norman Tebbit is not practicable, for many of the above, before you say :roll: And being a boss, £8 an hour or £15 pound an hour?? you do the Math .. Luvley Jubley
  3. Re: Daily Mail - Polish workers employed to build new carrie

    Nail right on the head :thumbleft:
  4. Re: Daily Mail - Polish workers employed to build new carrie

    Yes as you correctly state there are hundreds of people still capable of the required skills, who through necessity have had to re train and even re locate.
    "Going back" ie the Tebbit touch, is not a viable proposition.
    Two of my friends that are both ex car workers, who have welding skills, (one even retrained into auto electrics), have been forced to retrain again as the work dried up.
    The Midlands having lost its car factories and associated industries has turned to a multitude of other industries, and many ex tradesmen do jobs far from their original training.
    I cannot see any letting go of the "bird in hand" for what could have been very short term employment, as even as we speak there is speculation of cancellation.
  5. Does that mean when the carriers get binned we can send the Polish back home?
  6. Re: Daily Mail - Polish workers employed to build new carrie

    This is also a major problem. How many ship yards are there in the midlands? To me you and most users of this site going away from home to work is not a great issue. But to joe civvie it is a big deal. Evn if they decided to move to scotland many people cant currently sell ther houses and move as they would loose out far to much money.
  7. Re: Daily Mail - Polish workers employed to build new carrie

    Part of the problem has always been a certain snobbery against chaps who work metal and "get their hands dirty". The political and accounting/legal/medical/trading classes (K Clark, P Mandelson for example) have long dismissed "metal bashing" as somewhat beneath us. It seems totally incomprehensible to them that some people enjoy and take pride in working with their hands and learning and using "trade" skills. So what incentive is there for young people to train to be a mechanic, technician or craftsman?

    Additionally, we seem to view engineers as somewhere lower in the social pecking order than, say, accountants. This contrasts starkly with the Germans and Japanese who value their engineers.
  8. chieftiff

    chieftiff War Hero Moderator

    Re: Daily Mail - Polish workers employed to build new carrie

    There is also a very clear difference between someone who can operate a spot welding machine on a production line - whose skills are more akin to a computer operator - to someone who welds plate (and often pipe) - holds and maintains his/ her Lloyds (ASME) certificates and is used to earning upwards of £50k a year constructing oil platforms, refineries and ships. The poles' diversified and switched their shipbuilding capacity to build narrowboats, superyachts and leap on the European engineering construction industry circus whilst we "re-trained" We have either lost these skills or the people to more rewarding parts of the world - you can't make a proper welder in short time and Lloyds certainly wouldn't certify one unless they could demonstrate a very high level of competence, that level of competence requires experience - something these Polish welders still have.
  9. I feel for the 2.4 million who are unemployed knowing that there are over half a million Polish (plus the other entrants from other countries) here working.

    From a bloke who is unemployed (acting as a Househusband) and not receiving any benefits.
  10. chieftiff

    chieftiff War Hero Moderator

    You have my sympathy, seriously I think we all appreciate how demoralising that must be and some of us are probably accutely aware that it could happen to us in short time...... However, if it makes you feel better there isn't a hope in hell that you could be doing the work that these skilled industry guys are being brought in to do within the contracted timescales even if you considered yourself a brilliant welder who could piece a Land ROver Chassis together in a couple of hours, we are talking about proper welding in thick steel plate- I'm not suggesting all of the European workers are being brought in for their skillsets, I'm sure in some area's it is all about saving money, but certainly in the engineering arena it is invariably the case. These guys specialise in travelling around Europe fulfilling short/ medium term contracts for big contracting companies with some very specialised skills and many of them are British!
  11. wet_blobby

    wet_blobby War Hero Moderator

    You can't moan that the poles are taking jobs if the natives can't fill the vacancies.

    Remember all the brit construction workers in Germany in the 80's, they even made a TV show about it. Not many brits complaining that we were over there earning money. POL got it about right a few posts ago, to many people wanting the "I'm important but know fcuk all" approach to qualifications and work than the " I'm a pretty handy person to know".

    Having a skill set is so yesterday, who needs to do anything when you can just comment about it be it as an accountant, journalist or burger flipper.
  12. Re: Daily Mail - Polish workers employed to build new carrie

    In car factories machines do spot welding.
    Maintenance engineers can weld as well as any polish shipbuilder, and these are the skills to which I referred.
    As Birmingham was once considered to be the "Workshop " of the world, where it was reckoned you could buy anything from a pin to a battle ship (Obviously components), the skills were all here, even producing steel in the Black country.
    These days all the emphasis is on such things as computer operating,IT and office related careers. Traditional industries of this region are not considered the way forward, and considering there is very little opportunity in these fields its not at all surprising.
    We are fast becoming a nation of packers and warehouse persons.
    And we should be ashamed how little incentives there are to pursue a career in heavy engineering as we once did.
    Yes we did out price ourselves in days gone by, but now not many "Peasants" labour for a bowl of rice in the industries that have been taken to our oriental friends.
    And if this is bollocks I am talking, then explain the fact that many oriental and other foreign owned ex British industries are being sited in the UK, and thriving.
    Yes the unions did cause trouble in the car industry in the dark days, but most of the strikes were inspired by communist led branches and not really popular with rank and file members. under the present restrictions and rules many car firms would prosper if given a second chance.
    Trouble is retrospect is a marvelous thing. Pity a lot of the management in the 60's, and 70's didn't take shorter lunch breaks and concentrate on the job, instead of blaming the shop floor for all that beset them.
    And no I am not red Ken, quite the opposite but am willing to apportion blame where it is due.

    And Chief tiff on a more personal note the Narrow boats you referred to are not as great value as you might think. Try Liverpool boats, or even our two humble builders here in Tamworth, you might be very very surprised.
    When the Poles first entered the market they did a Japanese trick of trying to seduce the market by selling under value to capture a monopoly.
    Luckily in this instance the Brits went with them. With the recession looming they rolled with the Poles, and it is my pleasure to reassure you that many a fine boat is produced in this neck of the woods, at well competitive prices,and as good, if not better quality. :wink: :wink:

    Edited to say that one of the welders I mentioned "Barry" was in fact a Mill wright and has in the last three months re located to the USA where his skills are appreciated and he is being very well compensated for his labour in a prefabricated building company.
  13. chieftiff

    chieftiff War Hero Moderator

    Re: Daily Mail - Polish workers employed to build new carrie

    Mate I completely agree, there are boatbuilders here who have maintained their skills and knock out some fantastics stuff (I'm thinking of companies like Norton Canes) but as far as shipbuilding goes(as opposed to boatbuilding) the industry has failed to maintain any semblence of expertise. All of the welders I know (and it's a lot) have moved from shipbuilding in places like Teeside to worldwide engineering construction; they have been earning good money building the Olympic Stadium, LNG processing plants in Scotland and Wales and some pretty amazing plant module machinery all over the world - unfortunately they are all in their 50's, all happy with the shift in work as they are paid some fantastic sums compared to when they built ships, all 6g coded although most of their work is in easier positions and every single one constantly drips that I need to get more young apprentices into the system - unfortunately in the current economic climate short termism in the form of contractors "contracting in" to meet specialised needs is the key to project success. There are few client companies and only the larger contracting companies who seriously think about future proofing or even employing full time their own workforce...... it's not about to get better anytime soon either, there simply isn't the constant supply of work necessary to train a large apprentice cohort and make it financially viable by seeing a return on that investment.

    With all the will in the world a car welder- wether backstreet or mainstream working for Toyota is never going to become a plate or pipe welder that an employer would trust(or be allowed to employ by their insurer) to zip up an oil refinery pressure vessel, ships hull, oil pipeline or other high risk job without a significant amount of training - perhaps 2-3 years before they could pass a 6g ASME welding test, trust me on this I design the training programmes that enable them to do just that!
  14. Re: Daily Mail - Polish workers employed to build new carrie

    My two local companys, had stacks of expert welders, who could show any foreign welder the way home. Actually rolling their own steel (Bessemer) before welding it up. Making Trains and Cars.
  15. chieftiff

    chieftiff War Hero Moderator

    Re: Daily Mail - Polish workers employed to build new carrie

    I'm not doubting you Scouse but "expert" is an oft misused word, in this case the only important words are current, competent and qualified. I wouldn't employ a tailor to make me a pair of shoes even if he had made leather jackets, the distinction here is similar and the pool of people available for this work is limited hence why Europeans are being used more and more, I'm not saying it's right just explaining why it is and will continue to happen. The same thing is happening in other similar areas of engineering - there are plenty of aircraft engneers looking for work, there are plenty of gas turbines that need maintaining however there is still a skills gap between aviation and power generation that needs to be filled by training - in the meantime there are plenty of qualified European gas turbine maintenance technicians looking for work and available right now at a competitive rate - who would you take on for a 6 month contract?
  16. Re: Daily Mail - Polish workers employed to build new carrie

    Don't start me on trains scouse, a lot of my family did apprenticeships with Metro Cammell train builders in Saltley Birmingham.
    My brother in law was unemployed for six months when that place moved abroad.
    And now they seem to think it was a retrograde step. Could have told them that at the time. Like they would listen.
    In fact that's Britain, no one listens unless your telling them what they want to hear.
  17. Re: Daily Mail - Polish workers employed to build new carrie

    Chief, I am not questioning your knowledge or word as to the present state of the engineering profession in UK.
    I am just lamenting the passing of our skill sets which at one time led the world. And but for the apathy of management in the 60's and 70's plus the militancy of the few leading the masses into self destruct.
    Nostalgia is one of the few privileges of the retired.
  18. Re: Daily Mail - Polish workers employed to build new carrie

    CT re 6 month contract Why the so called!! good old,highly skilled Jam Roll Welder on £8 an hour, :wink: :wink: Whats that ?? about the good old British Management/Bosses, not being blessed with a great degree of intelligence :lol: :lol: Ps loads of good English plate welders, out there, that are Qualified, to work on those two flat tops :cry:
  19. Re: Daily Mail - Polish workers employed to build new carrie

    The good old boys used to use a woodbine packet for a 1 mill shim, when putting the bogies on. The were still correct, and the fag packet in place some 10/20 years later when the cab was de bogied :lol: :lol:

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