Cut them lose

Not_a_boffin

War Hero
There are a number of things you can say about the Red Sea Pedestrians, depending on whether you think they are deliberately out to terrorise an entire population or not. Your point of view tends to originate from which set of "facts" you wish to believe.

What I believe to be certain is :

1. The Israeli government is both democratically elected and secular. The few small religious parties tend to have impact above their membership mainly because the government is usually a coalition of many parties.

2. The IDF do not deliberately target civilians for the sake of it. They ARE far less sensitive to Palestinian casualties than for example we were in NI (or elsewhere for that matter). They have long ago decided that in the sort of conflict they are engaged in that an eye for an eye is their modus operandi. It is easy for the west to draw comparisons with our counter-terror approach in NI and Spain, the Baader Meinhof etc, but these are of limited value when compared to what the Israelis percieve as an entirely hostile border (any treaty's extant only serve to lessen the intent, NOT the capability).

3. The Israeli's have ceded land (not just Sinai & Gaza) and removed their own settlers at gunpoint after great and painful national debate. They have also agreed to peace treaty's only to see them flouted by the PLO / PLA blatant failure to prevent Hamas / Al-Aqsa suicide bomb operations which are exclusively targeted against civilians. Incidentally, these include sporadic unguided artillery attacks from both Gaza and Lebanon, so it's not just a case of rocks and demonstrators vs mechanised forces.

4. The RSP are not in the habit of exporting their wars around the world. They have certainly acted outside their borders but with specific objectives (Eichmann, post Munich 74, Osirak). They do not run around bombing soft targets and then justifying it as some sort of ongoing conflict.

My opinion for whats its worth (opinions are like *********, we've all got one). However, the current BBC / Guardianista received wisdom needs challenging and a bit of balance brought to bear.
 

OSLO

War Hero
I take your point about shooting 10 year old who only throw stones and the perceived willingness to accept "collateral damage". One could argue that it is better for 5 innocents to be killed by elimating 1 terrorist than for that one terrorist to kill 15 of your innocents, but that may appear callous to those not living with the daily threat of being blown up (and don't even start the whole "but we had the IRA" and the "but we have Al Qaeda threats" - nowhere near the same scale of threat).

I also agree that the perfect solution would be a unified country where both peoples live side by side in peace and harmony, where political parties are made up of Arabs and Jews...meanwhile, back in the real world, you have 2 peoples who distrust each other, the Israelis who have built themselves a successful economy of the sand and rock vs the Palestians who elected some of the most corrupt leaders in the middle east (which takes some doing) and then elected a worse choice: one that would get their meagre support frozen. Then, to cap it off, the 2 palestian parties engage in a gang warfare over governing. Given the track record of Palestinians organising proverbial p*** ups in breweries, one can see why the Israelis might see themselves as better able to administer a combined nation. However, until the "mad mullahs" in Tehran and Damascus stop funding the armed factions in Palestine and spitting fire and brimstone against Jew (and Christian), the impressionables will go on strapping bomb belts and making homemade rockets which will earn them the retailiation from the IDF and the cycle goes on.
 
Nutty said:
Lingyai

Are you saying a 7.56 bullet is the correct response for a youth throwing stones. If that is what your pictures portray?????
No, more along the lines of if matey wasn't stupid enough to be throwing stones / petrol boms / grenades etc. he probably wouldn't get slotted.
It is all very tit for tat over there but the rags cannot win over an elite military. They will not stop until they destroy Israel (not going to happen). Their PM cannot even control Hamas for starters, like most or their kind in Iraq etc. they are a tribal bunch with no real acceptance of democracy. People like this need a firm hand or they go on and on fighting. That is why sometimes people actualy welcome the iron grip of people like Saddam. Do you just stand by when people keep blowing up your citizens or do you just hit them harder? I know what I would prefer.
 
I am trying very hard to work out whether the tribal lot you are alluding to are arab or jew, at least the arabs haven't assasinated a leader for trying to create a situation from which peace might flow.

Today as I have said before the only real difference between the Israeli and the Palestinian is the israeli has better weapons, both have equal disregard for the sanctity of life, especially of civilians.

Can you honestly claim that killing innocent civilians is justified by either side, as the score for both is probably quite close.

Peter
 

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