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Cut them lose

andym said:
.......these are facts!Both the US and UK govts and top buisness persons are of the Jewish faith.

That certainly changes my mind on everything to do with the Middle East! Pretty loose description of fact, though!
So if neither Israel or Palestine can solve this situation by themselves would a UN peace keeping mission be a viable solution? Neutral troops to patrol a de-militarised zone to allow the two sides to broker a deal with fewer incidents that could distract them? Or would it just suck the international community further into the conflict than we are already?
andym said:
There is a fundamental issue here,and before anyone brands me a Nazi,these are facts!Both the US and UK govts and top buisness persons are of the Jewish faith.It seems that their religion(along with radical muslims)has more pull with them than their allegiance to their country.

Ah facts. But what are facts? As Göbbels used to say, and it is very apt here, if you repeat the lie often enough people will begin to believe it, otherwise known as an argumentum ad nauseam type argument. Well he was partly right. This is an age old anti-Semitic myth that has been doing the rounds for rather too long. It was certainly popular in Tsarist times. Whenever the majority feel their hegemony is being chellenged you will always come across right-wing conservatives who fabricate myths. This is one which is remarkably similar to one currently doing the rounds in the US and in some parts of the media in UK, currently asserts that gays are doing the same thing. In the past it has also been Eurocrats. There is also a whiff of anti-Scottish sentiments taking a similar vein at present, in Westminster! Don't believe everything you hear Andy! Most businessmen and politicians in the UK are NOT Jewish, most are NOT gay, most are NOT Scottish and NONE are Eurocrats. There are a disproportionate number of lawyers in both Houses of Parliament as in Business (but a country can never have too many lawyers :wink: ).
andym said:
Phew,i was standing by for a bit of a broadside there.You are right shippers in the removal of religion from the equation,but unfortunatly bothe the Palestinians and Iraelis have "issues" that go back to biblical times.Its gonna take more than a Brick wall and a change in govts to sort this one out i am afraid.It doesnt help that soon israel might become a target for the nuclear aspirations of Iran.

No this problem is a 20th century one, until the concept of a Jewish homeland was created the few Jews who lived in Palestine got on fine with their Islamic neigbhors. The origins of the present conflict lie very much in the creation of the state of israel by the UN in the late 40s whcih provoked the first arab attempt to push the jews into the sea.

The present conflict will continue as long as both side insist in a tit for tat series of reprisal killings, and Israel refuses to either implement existing agreements not talk to the palestinians.

I would suggest that both sides through their intransigence and bloodymindedness are responsible together for the rise of militant islam around the world.

What's the Israeli international airport called? Ben Gurion or summat? Isn't he the bloke who used to blow up British squaddies?

Yes, and so is Martin McGuinness, Jerry Adams, A/bishop Markarios,Jomo Kenyatta! It didn't stop the Gov. of the day dealing with them though did it?
For the record,Israel was carved out of the desert after the UK government recinded on its promises dating back to 1917. Eden ummed and ahed for years after WWII after the Jewish faith had been decimated. Put yourself in the shoes of someone who had survived the camps, been disowned by your country of birth and the guy that promised you a place to live 30 years before was still hesitating. I'm not condoning terrorism, but that is the atmosphere that was in place in 1948.

Fast forward to the 1980s/90s, and you have an Israel that was built partly by buying up land from palestianians and out of the desert building farms, cities and green. With enemies on all sides, the country quickly became a major defence industry player (and the spin offs from that put the country's industry up in the tables of commerce) and known to be capable proud and fierce fighters. Meanwhile, the country has gone to war 3 times with neightbours in the previous 30 years with mixed success.

The PLO (an overtly terrorist organisation that carried out unbelieveable atrocities while being funded by Arab countries to the tune of many millions) is now a recognised political force. The leaders of the PLO are pocketing much of the funding into Swiss bank accounts while proclaiming themselves the guardian of the Palestinians, a nation of disparate factions and tribes that roamed a desert. The PLO becomes the PLA and is now funded by global bodies, like the World Bank, IMF as well as continuing to receive funds from Syria, Iran, Libya and Iraq for more nefarious purposes. What does the PLA do with these funds? Try to build infrastructure? Try to build cities in the areas that have been given to them by the UN? Try to improve the lot of Palestinians and create a nation? No! They continue to turn a blind eye to Hamas, Islamic Jihad, et al who go into Tel Aviv, Haifa and Jerusalem, blow themselves up and as many civilians as possible with the consequence that the capable, proud and fierce Israel forces retaliate against the identified terrorists that the PLA has been conveniently (for the PLA) ignoring. This leads to more dissatisfied and easily impressionable youths from joining Hamas, etc and the cycle goes on.

Yes, Israel uses tanks, planes and helicopters against an enemy armed with homemade rockets and suicide belts, but how else to they fight this enemy? If the enemy hides themselves behind civilians, how else can you get him? You use the means available to you.

Lastly, there is dissinformation on both sides, with both sides claiming greater casulaties and accusing the other side of bigger and bigger atrocities. Is it possible that an errant shell fired from an Israeli tank landed on a beach in the middle of a family? Yes. Equally, is it possible that Hamas needed a created atrocity to regain the support of the entire Palestinian people and stave off some of the heat from foreign bodies that are strangling it financially? Absolutely. There is evil on both sides, but the cycle of strike and counterstike will go on until both sides accept the existence of the other. Israel is ready to accept a Palestine (much against the wishes of its right wingers). With Abbas' referendum in July, we'll see if the Palestinian people (as opposed to Hamas) accepts an Israel. That is the first step on a long road.

Sorry if this post is a bit rambling; there has been alot of b***ox written about the situation (and I may have written some of that above!). But no one should confuse judaism with unconditional support of the Israeli government, in the same way that you wouldn't want foreigners to think that the all Brits at home and abroad are avid supporters of Blair and his cohorts. As for the rubbish about the hidden semitic conspiracy at the top of the US and UK...
In the 60s and 70s I supported Israel completely, then they had their back to the wall with all around then trying to psuh them into the sea. Times have changed now and even Syria is no longer threatening Israel, but Israel has doggedly held on to the occupied territories bruatlised the inhabitants, expropriated their land and allowed vast settlements of extreme jews to be built in those occupied land. How would you feel if your house was buldozed to improve the feild of fire from a French settlement that had bee built nearby, how would you feel if you were only alowed to work when thr French said it was OK and then for a pitance in a French sweat shop, how would you feal when your new shanty, (remember your house has already been blown uo) is crushed by a French tank which just didn't notice it, one could go on. If you were living like that would you notperhaps at least give some support to the resistance. The trouble is that the Israelis have moved from being the one under threat to the palestinians being the one who is terrorised. As long as the Iraelis continue tit for tat killings, punitive strikes and just killing people to keep the rag heads under control there will be no peace, not just for them but for us all

I do support the right of the state of israel to live in peace, but not at the cost of terrorising the palestinians.

I think this fits..

Are you saying a 7.56 bullet is the correct response for a youth throwing stones. If that is what your pictures portray?????


Like Maxi I found your post rather slanted towards the Israel cause. I do however strongly dispute your assertion:

Quote(twice) "that the capable, proud and fierce Israel forces retaliate against the identified terrorists " Unquote:

This Defence force who will kill or kidnap any person in any other Sovereign State who they decide they do not like. Who will fire an air to surface missile to kill a target and not care about the other 10/15 people in the area who are also killed. Who will shoot a 10 year old boy who's only crime at the time he was shot was to be cowering behind his father. Prior to that he May have thrown a stone. Perhaps if a member of the IDF had been brought to trial and found guilty as all the people the IDF have murdered apparently were, then perhaps some of us would believed they are part of the CIVILIZED WORLD and not on par with PLO, Hamas etc. And yes I helped train Israel Navy Submariners back in the 60's when I honestly believed they were the good guys.

Quote: "Israel is ready to accept a Palestine (much against the wishes of its right wingers). With Abbas' referendum in July, we'll see if the Palestinian people (as opposed to Hamas) accepts an Israel. That is the first step on a long road". Unquote

Israel is only ready to accept Palestine as a Vassal state in which Israel controls access, finance, imports and exports, chooses which bits of land are returned to the vassals. That Israel will also leave both settlements and IDF bases within the new Palestine borders. That is a bit like England saying to Scotland you can have complete and full Independence from the UK as the Irish Free State has but we will decide the boundary and all institutions Police , armed forces laws, taxation etc will remain the same controlled from London.

The agreement has to be fair at least to the middle road people on both sides and unless a blinding flash, as took place in South Africa, happens then we are in for another 20/30/100 years of the same.

There are a number of things you can say about the Red Sea Pedestrians, depending on whether you think they are deliberately out to terrorise an entire population or not. Your point of view tends to originate from which set of "facts" you wish to believe.

What I believe to be certain is :

1. The Israeli government is both democratically elected and secular. The few small religious parties tend to have impact above their membership mainly because the government is usually a coalition of many parties.

2. The IDF do not deliberately target civilians for the sake of it. They ARE far less sensitive to Palestinian casualties than for example we were in NI (or elsewhere for that matter). They have long ago decided that in the sort of conflict they are engaged in that an eye for an eye is their modus operandi. It is easy for the west to draw comparisons with our counter-terror approach in NI and Spain, the Baader Meinhof etc, but these are of limited value when compared to what the Israelis percieve as an entirely hostile border (any treaty's extant only serve to lessen the intent, NOT the capability).

3. The Israeli's have ceded land (not just Sinai & Gaza) and removed their own settlers at gunpoint after great and painful national debate. They have also agreed to peace treaty's only to see them flouted by the PLO / PLA blatant failure to prevent Hamas / Al-Aqsa suicide bomb operations which are exclusively targeted against civilians. Incidentally, these include sporadic unguided artillery attacks from both Gaza and Lebanon, so it's not just a case of rocks and demonstrators vs mechanised forces.

4. The RSP are not in the habit of exporting their wars around the world. They have certainly acted outside their borders but with specific objectives (Eichmann, post Munich 74, Osirak). They do not run around bombing soft targets and then justifying it as some sort of ongoing conflict.

My opinion for whats its worth (opinions are like *********, we've all got one). However, the current BBC / Guardianista received wisdom needs challenging and a bit of balance brought to bear.
I take your point about shooting 10 year old who only throw stones and the perceived willingness to accept "collateral damage". One could argue that it is better for 5 innocents to be killed by elimating 1 terrorist than for that one terrorist to kill 15 of your innocents, but that may appear callous to those not living with the daily threat of being blown up (and don't even start the whole "but we had the IRA" and the "but we have Al Qaeda threats" - nowhere near the same scale of threat).

I also agree that the perfect solution would be a unified country where both peoples live side by side in peace and harmony, where political parties are made up of Arabs and Jews...meanwhile, back in the real world, you have 2 peoples who distrust each other, the Israelis who have built themselves a successful economy of the sand and rock vs the Palestians who elected some of the most corrupt leaders in the middle east (which takes some doing) and then elected a worse choice: one that would get their meagre support frozen. Then, to cap it off, the 2 palestian parties engage in a gang warfare over governing. Given the track record of Palestinians organising proverbial p*** ups in breweries, one can see why the Israelis might see themselves as better able to administer a combined nation. However, until the "mad mullahs" in Tehran and Damascus stop funding the armed factions in Palestine and spitting fire and brimstone against Jew (and Christian), the impressionables will go on strapping bomb belts and making homemade rockets which will earn them the retailiation from the IDF and the cycle goes on.
Nutty said:

Are you saying a 7.56 bullet is the correct response for a youth throwing stones. If that is what your pictures portray?????
No, more along the lines of if matey wasn't stupid enough to be throwing stones / petrol boms / grenades etc. he probably wouldn't get slotted.
It is all very tit for tat over there but the rags cannot win over an elite military. They will not stop until they destroy Israel (not going to happen). Their PM cannot even control Hamas for starters, like most or their kind in Iraq etc. they are a tribal bunch with no real acceptance of democracy. People like this need a firm hand or they go on and on fighting. That is why sometimes people actualy welcome the iron grip of people like Saddam. Do you just stand by when people keep blowing up your citizens or do you just hit them harder? I know what I would prefer.
I am trying very hard to work out whether the tribal lot you are alluding to are arab or jew, at least the arabs haven't assasinated a leader for trying to create a situation from which peace might flow.

Today as I have said before the only real difference between the Israeli and the Palestinian is the israeli has better weapons, both have equal disregard for the sanctity of life, especially of civilians.

Can you honestly claim that killing innocent civilians is justified by either side, as the score for both is probably quite close.


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