Courses Lasting More Than Two Weeks.


Lantern Swinger
Can anyone give the definitive answer on this one please?

Heard recently that the Leadership/Command Courses are now to be three week affairs for the RNR. Don't know if it's even true, but if it is how does the Navy expect us to get this amount of time off from our civvy jobs?
Bearing in mind most people have around the four week mark for annual leave in the real world and not many companies give any time off for annual training these days (and we're allegedly appreciated by the country - but that's another story!), this leaves only a week for family holidays, emergency days off when the kids are ill, etc, etc, etc. am I being unreasonable in being ever so slightly p****d off at this? For the record I've always been very commited to the RNR, but even I feel this is going too far, especially bearing in mind that SPO managers courses, although now broken up into two sections, still involve a three week period away at some point. Anyone able to advise?
Same deal for the TA. This (financial) year I have had to take a total of 2 weeks off for TA courses (which I have already done in the RN, but that's a different story!) and a further 2 weeks for an exercise. Luckily my boss is cool about the whole situation and even more luckily, the courses I did were relevant to my civvy day job.

Unfortunately I feel the only worthwhile advice you will probably receive is the age old: ''If you don't like it put your notice in.''
That's the way it's going. RMR personnel already have to attend the same courses as their RM counterparts to qualify for promotion.

Getting time off work is a massive problem and it does require employers who are supportive. If this really is insurmountable for you then relay it up the chain of command - but we're well past the point of arguing that special courses should be laid on for reserves.
Agree with Hookyh the new training matrix's and length/organisation of courses are turning promotion prospects for those of us who are employed into flights of fancy!

In WarSeaRes 4 weeks for a LS TEM course, 8 weeks SPO Managers course and now 3 weeks for the leadership elements. What's next 4 week DIT course, 4 weeks Raleigh for new entries where does it stop.

Seems to me that if you want to get anywhere in the future in RNR fast you need to be self or unemployed..
Or of course find a reasonable and supportive employer...yes loads of those about at the moment in the current financial climate....especially if you've been mobilised in the last year or so..."please sir can I have another 8 weeks of work after having the last 7 off!!..oh on top of my holiday please!!...maybe if I preprint another shitty thankyou letter that might sway the argument...maybe if I show him the far fetched drivvell that comes from the CMR and SO1 Ivory towers how we are doing a fab job blah, training is excellent, making a real difference at the front line bullshit bullshit might feel my boss with a charitable glow...I know I'll get myself nominated for a Sun award that will do it...that will look good in the office!!

Is it just me or does the RNR make you really f**cking angry on a regular basis these days.!!.

After 15 plus years of service and multiple mobilisations it's time to take the bounty this year and feck off for the sake of my families future if not my sanity!


War Hero
I totally share the frustration of people here - I know the Regular RN will mank and moan at us and tell us that "if you can't take a joke" etc, but there is a real issue here. By means of comparison, for the regular RN - try asking your CO for 3 weeks off and then 4 weeks off to do a course not related to the RN or the job you are paid to do. The answer will almost certainly be no!

The RNR needs to ensure that its people are well trained, and well qualified - and I think that in the main we are doing this. I genuinely believe that we are far more professional as an organisation now than we were 10 years ago. But the RN has to realise that particularly in these very difficult times, it isn't easy to just turn around and get time off work for long periods at a time - particularyl when you are going away to work for somebody else.

We need to work out how best to make use of time and resources - for instance, doing long weekends (maybe Friday or a Monday) and working long days (I mean 0800 - 2000) - make people work harder and longer to do the course. A lot of frustration comes on RN courses where you have lots of standeasys and secure at 1600 - the courses are often 2 days packed into 5 - sort out time wasting, and you have a solution.


Lantern Swinger

I believe in doing exactly the same courses as the regulars, with the regulars, wherever possible. I assume from your mildly caustic comment that you are one of the lucky ones who is either self-employed or works for an organisation that is (rarely these days) supportive of their employees taking multiple weeks off every year?

For my part I've been in the RNR for nearly twenty years, got my crown in two branches, done FTRS, multiple mobilisations and was the first to qualify as LOM - Tem in the RNR, a course that susequently opened up to the RNR after the powers that be realised what a boon it would be for us in the Seaman branch. I've given my all for a lot of years, almost costing me my marriage, so I think it's fair to say I'm approaching this from a commited perspective, however having now waited ten years to make P.O. and still not got onto the signal I may well just f**k off and do something else, SUCH IS THE LACK OF APPRECIATION AND UNREALISTIC APATHETIC ATTITUDE OF THOSE IN THE IVORY TOWERS DOWN SOUTH!

IF you "Angrydoc' can tell me how to use all my holiday for a whole year in one go, not just for one year, but several over an RNR 'career', not severely piss my family off, not have any holidays left for emergencies such as kids being off school sick, teacher training days, real family holidays etc, then please do so! I await your answer with baited breath!!! (Or are you perchance one of those in the ivory tower?)


Lantern Swinger
There are some slight inaccuracies with some previous posts.
1. The LS TEMS course is indeed 4 weeks, however, and after considerable effort, not least from CMR SO2 Training, the RNR may now attend the course in 2 x 2 week packages.
2. This Leadership course is not, as far as I'm concerened, in the Sea(Res) Training Matrix, and until it is, it is NOT a requirement for promotion.
3. There is only one course in the Sea(Res) Training Matrix that requires an attendance that can not be broken down to 2 weeks or less, and that is the SPO Managers Course for SRs. Currently, and again thanks to CMR SO2 Training's efforts, this 6 week course can be broken down into 2 x 3 week packages.

So, as the guy responsible for Sea(Res) Training, as far as I'm aware in the whole carear of a Sea(Res) rating, he/she will only have to do 2 x 3 weeks, all other courses are 2 weeks or less. And that is from the horses mouth.

If you disagree, I'd be delighted to hear from you, as I will fix the problem (for my branch). However I'm off to throw myself down some French Mountains tomorrow with a couple of planks strapped to my feet, so my response may be a tad tardy.

Hope you all enjoy 2010

Yours Aye



Lantern Swinger

Thanks for the corrections Sir! I'm always happy to be wrong - and in this case delighted!

Question: Does this mean from your last post that we in the SeaRes branch don't have to do leadership courses, as that's how it read?

Enjoy the snow!


Lantern Swinger
Thanks for your best wishes.

The training Martix is your CO's authority to advance you, or in the case of AB1s, LHs, POs and CPOs, to state that you are ready for advancement.

Obvioulsy the CO also has to give his own recommendation (and I am certainly not stepping on a CO's toes).

However, until I am told otherwise (and I "own" the Sea Res Matrix [well WO Hurlow does on my behalf]), the Sea Res Branch require only the courses stated on the training matrix (a copy of which your PSI/DO/STO/RFPO will hold) to be ready for advancement.

Could you do me a favour and email me seperatly, as I'd like to track down where this "additional requirement" has come from.




Lantern Swinger
As far as I was briefed and have seen on Training Matrices in our unit there always has been a requirement to have completed the RN LRCC to be rated to LH and the RNR SRCC to get PO. this is an RN requirement, and is almost certainly in the last matrix and the latest one to come out. there may be confusion somewhere along the line as you don't have to be on the signal to complete the LRCC as far as I believe.

I think from leaving new entry to eligible for promotion to LH is going to take the average person approx 6 years which includes a deployment. notice I said eligible this doesn't mean they will get promoted. to get to PO is another 6 years bearing in mind its 2 years for the SPF managers course 1 year for SRCC , 1 year BSCC and first aid, which would be out of date if they here completed before the SPF and SRCC together with a deployment. so probably more like 7-8 years as a LH before you can even think about a promotion.

try explaining this to your boss that you need time off to attend courses that really don't have much to do with your full time job,(unless your an armed guard on a cruise liner) and that every 3 years you'll be disappearing for 9-12 months.

Still shouldn't have joined if you couldn't take a joke. Maybe thats why I'm now struggling to think of why I should stay in.


Lantern Swinger

Agree entirely with everything you've said.

To be fair I did one of the 'in-house' RNR courses when HMS Mercia was still open, and although I've ben rated up as a confirmed Killick the RNR appear to have no record of me completing said course. I'm more than up for doing SRCC/SRLC, or whatever it's called this week, but have still been a Leading Hand for ten years (confirmed for nine). I have no illusions that I should be promoted solely due to time served, indeed no reason specifically why I should be promoted at all. (I can think of several guys better than me at the job who I would consider more deserving, and in several cases who have been in less time than me). My concern is purely that some of us will never be promoted if, as has been mooted (and at present killed off by SO2) yet another course has, or will become a more than two week affair. If there's nowhere to go once you've done all courses up to that point then do we just do Cyprus, Gib. Squadron, Rangework and Mobilisations, coz without making senior rate there's no shot at SPO Manager.
I'm sure this will ring bells for others if it is for me?


Lantern Swinger
Just noticed that I put SPF managers course instead of LH TEM. still 2 years to complete though.

Out of interest I have found the training matrix for Sea Branch from june 09 and LRCC and SRCC are on it. As far as I know this is a RN requirement and not branch and therefore can't be ignored or done at a later date once promotion has been gained. therefore no acting local rates.
apparently a lot of effort has been put into ensuring that he new matrix is as flexible as it can be. both Deployments, Cyprus and shadowing will be utilised to gain experience. However most of it is driven by the requirements for promotion to the next rate. i.e LRCC, TEMS, BSSC, First aid etc.

The one thing out of your control is once you have achieved everything you have to find a DO, who can write a decent report and also get it in on time. but thats a different thread altogether.

I also believe that the rules are now that anyone who hasn't done the courses for the rate they are currently holding, reverts back to the highest rank they are qualified for. i.e LH who haven't completed their LRCC go back to AB1 and PO or CPO who haven't done SRCC revert back to LH. there was a period of grace for those effected but that was over 3 years ago. Maybe if this was pursued there may be a few vacancies suddenly appear
It is a standard RN requirement to complete your branch specific and general leadership training in the year after you have been selected for promotion, prior to picking up your rate on the Common Promotion Date. The only caveat to that is if you are impeded by operational requirements, your DO may apply to defer (but you still must complete) the training you have missed and still allow you to pick up on your original CPD.

I would be very surprised that any RNR Rating may be promoted with having completed the mandatory training; if this is the case any credibility you may have had will disappear....
Those not mulling over the idea of taking the next bounty and running - prove!

Purple_twiglet said:
doing long weekends (maybe Friday or a Monday) and working long days (I mean 0800 - 2000) - make people work harder and longer to do the course.
That's certainly a good solution, but can you see any regular instructors doing that?



I'm in the RN - it's pretty supportive of everything I wish to do from a career point of view.

I understand your issue, but I think the emphasis should be on changing the terms and conditions to allow you more time with the RNR rather than us changing the courses to suit reservists.


Lantern Swinger
Rogerthecabinboy: Cheers Mate! Will have a squint (and probably groan - Lol!)

Thanks for all the input so far guys! This is turning into an interesting thread with things being thrown up that i hadn't thought of, especially instructors doing extra time and not being happy with it. That leaves only three options if it does become three weeks - either we do our own course again or we do two of the (alleged) three weeks, or finally very few of us will ever get promoted! I can see this one going to the folks down south for further work. Maybe W.O. Hurlow, along with SO2 will take a look once things have been confirmed one way or the other and clarify.

As always it'll all come out in the wash i guess!
angrydoc said:
I understand your issue, but I think the emphasis should be on changing the terms and conditions to allow you more time with the RNR rather than us changing the courses to suit reservists.

With respect, it's not that simple. There are no national terms and conditions that can be amended, as we work for employers in the public & private sectors, across the whole spectrum; there is no legal obligation on employers to give people leave for reserve forces training either.

For those of us who work in the public sector (and you in particular can probably guess what I do from my profile pic, though it may be lost on many) it is easier, but still can be a struggle, especially when my department doesn't see how eg. a DO's Course benefits them.

The danger of putting courses up to three weeks is that it is another step towards the reserves only being practical for the self-employed & casual workers (I understand drill night pay affects benefits payable to the unemployed) as these will be the only people able to devote the required leave.


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