Consigned to History.

Discussion in 'Diamond Lil's' started by Rumrat, Nov 29, 2009.

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  1. When I first started posting on here I got into an altercation with Tommo over the expression "Old Navy".
    Well without trying to resurrect an argument, after reading the posts of late I truly believe that the Navy of my service is in all but name "Dead".

    Whether it was better, worse, or just different is not the point, the point is it's gone. The ideas of service are different, the runs are different and the ships are changed that much that I doubt I would recognise much at all from my service days. And before anyone tells me that "Jack" is still the same forget it as he isn't, he cannot be as society would not allow it now, in the same vein as you would not let a sword fight in the local tavern. Its evolution, it saddens me that when my generation has gone so will the "Old Andrew".
    I believe that every so often all the little gradual changes come together and a chapter ends and another begins. I believe the big change was in situ by the early eighties, and that it started mid seventies, and I was still serving then.
    When I was a kid there were thousands of WW1 vets everywhere, and stories of the great war were to be had by anyone who would listen. Now their all dead.
    Nostalgia tells me its changed for the worse, common sense tells me its for the better, as it would be third world by today's standards.

    I am not berating the Navy I served in, I loved MOST of it, and regret very little, but I would love to be able to serve now as well if only for comparison. Its not trying to regain my youth that I would like to try it just curiosity, and I wonder if I did, could I man up and confess if I found it better?
    And please don't let this degenerate into a "Better in my day" argument as it is not the purpose of this thread. I have read with ENVY many things about today's Andrew, and not because I am taking the p1ss, but would have loved it that way in my time in.
    Just a reflection on the big events that have happened.
    Fcuk, all this reflection, must be getting old :roll: :oops: :cry:
  2. Ok, fair point. It IS different to when you and I were in the mob.
    Being younger than you, I was 'around' in the 70/80's (joining in 78).

    Is it dead...? I don't think so for several reasons.
    Firstly, I joined the RNR only a couple of years ago as part of my prescribed mid-life crises and then deployed to the middle east. Jack is STILL jack, as I witnessed on numerous occasions in the ports there. The matelots degenerated to the usual hilarious levels I'd forgotten were possible. Standards were reached that would see civilians fired for, with unions backing this! More surprising for myself, I found myself 'sinking' to this standard for the duration!
    On the flip side they were a definite team, though with the usual personal objectives. Dedication was to the task in hand and I'd like to think they would die for the cause..!

    Secondly, my lad has just joined the mob as a submariner. He LOVES it! And, as further testament, he IS the younger generation of Jack.
    He comes home and has all the arrogance of Jack; see's all civvies as wasters; is constantly questioning the perceived unimportance of defence and defends his moral role to death (WEM - Tridents)

    Incidentally, did you (or anyone else) read the article in this months NN about AB George Parker BEM?
    Out of 43 years in the mob, he served only 3 months in a shore draft!
    His story in the NN had a positive impact on my lad only a couple of days ago after reading it with a VERY respectful, 'Fcuking hell!'

    Its not dead, it's just different.
  3. Blackrat

    Blackrat War Hero Moderator Book Reviewer

    It's the same in the Army chaps. It's called progress. This is a conversation that has been had since the dawn of time, and will continue till the end of it.
  4. True, but I still feel (not because I want to) that as in evolution, there are times when things take a big jump in a short time, and I will attempt to explain what I mean.
    In 1965 when I joined up, the average serviceman came from a very different social background than now. Every thing started to change in the early sixties worldwide, and by the mid 70's the whole attitude of the young was almost unrecognisable from that of the 50's and early 60's.

    When I joined in '65, there was hundreds of blokes who had been in during the war, and they were not all senior rates either. There was literally dozens and dozens of three badge Able rates and L/Hands.
    The fleet was small by their standards, but humongous by today's, and the politics of the lower deck were very very different from how it was when I left in '89.
    (Please note that BETTER is not a word I am using.) I am not that sure that I actually thought it better than how it was when I left. The discipline had altered tremendously by the time I came out.
    I remember being the coxswain of the skippers Huntress, and taking him to the IOW every day to attend a courts Martial, and also being the L/Hand of the focsul. I gave all their jobs for the forenoon and on return there was a certain Junior thought he would not bother.
    I came back at 3 in the afternoon to find he had taken the afternoon off as well. I trooped him and at OOTD's I was told that it was case dismiss as he had threatened to change his option and go outside. I lost 2 hours off my weekend and he walks away.
    If you went OTT with your part of ship PO, you very often was not trooped, you was taken to the appropriate locker and had the living sh1t kicked out of you, and it worked. Don't think it would be the correct drill now.
    You was told to leave the mess deck by the L/H during tot time, you left no argument, and keeping one's place was not just an expression. But bullying? I saw green rub's by the score but I do not think bullying was rife, just harsher discipline. I've seen clear lower deck at least four times, when virtually ALL the none duty parts have gone ashore to settle a "crime" against a Junior by either Yanks, Aussies or the like. Most would not even know the Junior they were ashore avenging.
    We had a Black member of our mess, a certain AB Leo Cu----G and he was classed as NON BLANC when we reached S.Africa, and we were told we could not mix with him ashore.
    Fcuk me the bloke never had so much company, and as the South African Police could not fit the entire compliment of a Guided Light Destroyer into Simonstown or Cape Town's nick they gave it up. But on-board there being no PC, we called him every racist name ever thought of. Same with those of the other persuasion.
    Now by 1989, most of this had changed, the War and 50's blokes, late National Service blokes had all been consigned to history, the mob was discovering PC and the Navy was getting much smaller hence easier to control and discipline. During the middle 70's blokes started buying stereos and tapes, and all manner of new fangled machines to disturb M&Mend's, twas the beginning of the end of my Period and I could see it happening.
    My daughter is still serving (To my eternal shame FAA) and when she descends on me with half a ships company at a time, I see very much the difference. For a start they have more of a variety of fun, not just alcohol related, (poor b*stards) and they seem into more things than we had, and good luck to them as well. Food was tight when I was a nipper, some was still rationed, but I would not wish it on others because I had a dose of it.

    In conclusion I would still love a crack at today's Andrew. I love and collect antique guns, I fire black powder all the time, but every now and then when the mood takes me I have been known to shuffle off abroad to grab the biggest meanest SOAB weapon I can lay hands on, and blast away until the ammo and me are spent, and boy does it feel good.

    I would like to know if I could even fit in now let alone do a reasonable job of whatever I was about.
    Big snag though, as you get older the body gets less active and the mouth more so. :roll: :twisted: :D
  5. RumRat,

    Just for you:

    Old Navy

  6. Fookin Brilliant :thumbright: :thumbleft:
  7. The Ganges bit was interesting. Looking at some of the phots the place hadn't changed much from his day to when I joined up there in '73
  8. This is no different than saying Christmas isn't the same as it used to be - I bet it is for the kids who still get excited over Santa.

  9. From what I've read, you'd be a genuine asset shippers.
  10. I went back last month, the mast is falling to bits. I must admit as i walked through the main gate I got somthing in both eyes. Not quite the same fealing i had as i left in 72
  11. I never went to Ganges, but I can imagine how utterly upsetting it must be for anyone going back and seeing places from the past like that.

    Me being a big roughy toughie hard case, I had to get someone else to take my old and trusted car to the breakers at the end when she died. :cry: :cry: :cry: :roll:
  12. The mob changes , will always be doing so , and there will always be people who regret the passing of the old days.
    Aparently my grandfather, a WW1 hostilities ERA heard older 'salts' bemoaning the passsing of the old ways.
    "My god, they have marmalade in jars in the gunroom, never like that in my day " etc etc .
  13. Agreed, but at some points in history it changes faster than others.
    For instance, the passing of the gunnery branch,
    one moment the largest branch and the executive branch, then phwee, gone.
    And in less than ten years. And unless you are actually serving at the precise time the changes happen you blink and you miss them. Not literally, but close.
    Still I was not making a better worse comparison, just a statement that end's of era's take place and sometimes what becomes important periods of history do not always get noticed when they are actually happening.

    We all lived through a very poignant historic event recently, the passing of the WW1 generation, and many alive now will witness sadly the same event with WW2 vets very soon.
  14. I'm older than Rumrat , younger than Granny and about the same age as 1939 and Two Badge Mango. Until I stumbled on R.R.I'd not given much thought to my inglorious time in the Andrew. I joined just because I thought that the rig would be a good bird puller [It was] and fancied seeing the "Far away places with the strange sounding names" [Always played on Two way family favorites] I'm pragmatic so when on the first full day of service realising I'd dropped a big bollock ;- I resolved to relax and enjoy it. This I achieved to the extent that I finished up as a no badge fcuk all. This is not easy you have to work at it.It has been many many moons since I slung my "Mick" on a pussers messdeck. I do not do Blazers and ties and the B.L. and the R.N.A. know me not. I have no contact with the present day's Navy and would be lost and a fcuking menace overcome by the hightech advances.I like to feel that my day was better but in the cold light of day perhaps just different. Here comes the "But" but' I am totally unrepentant in my view that todays rig looks like bag of shite tied up in the middle and the hat like a sodding kiss me quick cheap fairground issue. P.S. We cleared lower deck on the Adamant in Rothseay when an oppo got done over by some Glasgow neds. during the Glasgow fair fortnight. It was short bloody and brutal. We won.
  15. (granny)

    (granny) Book Reviewer

    What's this 'younger then Granny' bit. Are you suggesting for one moment that I am OLD?
    I noticed the 'change' when the RN decided to reintroduce the Warrant Officer back to the lower deck. I was a CPOGI, what I considered to be the pinnacle of success,( stop laughing you shower), All of a sudden I was going backwards. I think that what we, of a certain generation, don't like is change. Our Navy was the best Navy because we were in it,then. I don't know about the rest of you old sods but I tend to be very nostalgic for something that we have lost. The young sprogs of today will, in 50 years or so, be just the same as us, bemoaning the demise of the RN. That is if there still is an RN to bemoan about. It was never the same after they took away my BLACK HAT!
  16. You say you served until 89
    Then was it not you and yours that sent the RN to ratshit

    I left in 76 and on a visit to Rosyth Navy days in 82 I saw it was buggered when two ratings were allowed ashore with PINK hair

    In 76 this would never have been allowed Hell they would not even have been able to collect their pay on the quarterdeck without been run in

    You do say you ran someone for a misdemeanor and they were let off
    That is where the rot started, something was sadly wrong

    Retention is what it was called I believe

    Well the RN would have been better off without them in the first place and then came wimmin sailors the end was nigh

    I believe the RN is finished and the sooner the better apart from the SSN service
    We do not have enough ships to be everywhere at once, Yes one ship has the fire power of seven DLG's but one ship can not be in the MED the FES and the CARIB at the same time

    Time to put the RN to sleep, put all the missiles on the Isle of Wight and have a mystery SSN nuclear power wherever they maybe Usually in the Irish sea as we watch every Corrie /east enders prog every night without fail

    Surface fleet forget it, transfer the matelots to the UKBA

    Jack McH
  17. Throbber. I suspect if everyone was like you when you served, that is where the RN went to ratshit. You boring, trolling cnut.
  18. As 'The Artful Bodger' (Lt Cdr Robert Bollinger Badger, DSC, RN) said in John Winton's wonderful book, 'We Joined the Navy', first published in 1959:

    I fear for the future of the RN and the maritime security of our nation now as never before but let's hope that things are back on a more even keel in a few more years. Our forebears have certainly braved fiercer storms in the past.

  19. FFS the RN has changed over the centuries so your upset that the RN you were in has changed? Well thank fuck that the navy does change or you'd still be in the age of sail.

    RN no longer rules the waves....other navy's have modelled themselves on the RN...even the the RN is downsizing so what?...women are in and serving on the front line so what?

    Surrender? oh dear Jack you havent learned anything from your time in the RN.

  20. Gollywog you need to take a good hard look at yourselves
    I expect you do a 35 hour week now and sleep on a matress, I bet you are not even sleeping 48 to a mess
    In my day we had no electronic entertainment, the radio signal was lost three miles off shore (have you been off shore?) The gramaphone used to dance and skip when at sea so that was a no no also
    The messdeck turned to ratshit when in 68 cassette players came out and everyone bought one in Singers and no headphones it was hell but we still had discipline (do you know what discipline is ?),
    You could not wander around with your hands in your pockets or amble around Dunfermline in no8's or as today in what we called two's with jacket unbuttoned and no cap

    Today I agree matelots are highly trained in the electronic work that they do but are a shower of shite with no real discipline, just like civvy yobs really who are just there for the money (as I was only with pride discipline and subserviance)

    Lets be honest the Navy is finished, yes matelots are doing great work in Helmund, but would not be needed if the other service had enough manpower to cover the jobs Jack is doing for them
    If they had enough manpower Jack would not be needed, so no real role for Jack
    Jack belongs at sea not ashore, and there are no longer any roles at sea so quit and recruit more Army personel with the savings, same amount of people without the cost of a rusting hulk to maintain

    As I said in my previous post although a modern ship has more firepower it can not be in three places at once, and are no longer required vis a vi the Somali pirate incident we were there but could do nothing, a dog with no teeth

    Jack McH

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