Commandos killed wearing wrong body armour

SILVER_FOX

War Hero
Terrible stuff but I fail to see why it is the Chain of Command's fault here since it was their own decision to wear the lightweight stuff. They were not ordered to make a change from their standing orders and did not have to give it up so that someone else could use it in the field

If they had not been issued with OSPREY then I could understand the remark but in this case, the coroners comment seems ill advised and is likely only pour salt into the open wound those particular families are suffering from.

Shame on him I say.

SF
 

Karma

War Hero
SILVER_FOX said:
....I fail to see why it is the Chain of Command's fault ....

I tend to agree, although note that the coroner is Andrew Walker, who seems to have based his recent career on criticising the system.

That said, I can see the argument. Anyone in a supervisory role has a responsibility to ensure that PPE is both issued, and used. The principle needs to be applied with some common sense though, that's where the coroners court, and not specifically Walker, seems to be weak.
 

SILVER_FOX

War Hero
Fair point, well made Karma but having been out there I know from experience that there isn't always someone on hand to ensure you are properly dressed. We're talking about disciplined military personnel at the end of the day and they would have known the regulations / standing orders and, more importantly, the risks in contravening them. It seems barking then that there should be someone responsible to supervise what are in effect the basics.

Notwithstanding the rights and wrongs of it I just hate to see some civvy have a pop at us when we aren't always able to respond with anything which falls outside the agreed LTT and, as you say, this guy is a bit of a regular.

SF
 
I see it as per SILVER_FOX. They were both Lance Jacks and, arguably, were in a supervisory position at that level.

Mr A Walker seems to have become a significant liability. The good he has achieved has been more than negated by his mindset and lack of understanding; either deliberate or innate. He acts very much as if he is viewing the loss of builders on a large company's building site.
 
matelo99. This isn't the first time yer man Walker has got things wrong or misunderstood them. Being charitable, he may not understand or be totally uninterested in the RA Commando's relationship with the RM
 

Karma

War Hero
matelo99 said:
Since when does the Army chain of command have anything to do with Royal Marines standing orders???

42 Cdo Battle Group Standing Orders, the BG includes elements of 29Regt RA. Whilst under the command og the BG CO his standing orders apply.

I'm sure you are aware that 3Cdo Bde includes quite a large proportion of pongos.
 

Karma

War Hero
SILVER_FOX said:
.... I know from experience that there isn't always someone on hand to ensure you are properly dressed. We're talking about disciplined military personnel....

Agree both your points, hence my previous comment about applying common sense.
 

lukep

War Hero
A couple of good lads lost their lives. Like alot of us have done they tweaked their kit and changed it about to suit their needs. If they were wearing the ''Pussers correct issue'' It probably would'nt have made a difference. The incident happened and nobody is to blame, it's big boys rules after all. It should all be put to rest this coroner has'nt got a Scooby what goes on out there.
 
I

In_my_day

Guest
Now this is clearly a delicate issue as these 2 young men gave their lives in the service of their country but this is a debate worth having.

lukep said:
Like alot of us have done they tweaked their kit and changed it about to suit their needs.
This is my primary issue. It is not the job of JNCOs to second guess command decisions, presumably based on int, the IPB, the Threat, and not a little personal experience, and in this tragic event there was no element of Mission Command. We have all argued the toss about something or other during our service but once the decision is made or confirmed "the order is to be given as if it is your own". If this is not the case where does the "tweaking" end, fu** it these grenades are a pain in the arse, I'll ditch 'em (not fantasy, I know of such a case), or if you prefer the Hollywood version of real events the Rangers preparing to deploy in Black Hawk Down, fiction but actually based on what happened.
lukep said:
If they were wearing the ''Pussers correct issue'' It probably would'nt have made a difference.
Sadly confirmed in the inquest.

lukep said:
...and nobody is to blame, it's big boys rules after all.
It's very easy to throw out one liners but unfortunately this is not the case. The Coroner very clearly blamed the chain of command. We should all agree that the chain of command does not start and finish in Cdo HQ. It extends down the the lowest man with authority over the individuals concerned, including the S/JNCO responsible for posting or briefing the sangar sentries.

I accept entirely that in this case the outcome would not have changed but in terms of Operational Effectiveness does this matter?

IMD
 
It extends down the the lowest man with authority over the individuals concerned, including the S/JNCO responsible for posting or briefing the sangar sentries.

Am I to read that as everyone going on patrol/STAG should be checked by the "line manager" first? That seems to border on the Soviet way of doing things. One of the great strengths of British Services has been their ability to operate at all levels, with degrees of independence, through discipline, training and motivation. If the Walker man has his way, that culture would quickly end and not to the National good.
 

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