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Clegg talks the talk, I hope he can walk the walk

finknottle

Banned
Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg has reaffirmed his determination to press ahead with reform of the House of Lords over the coming year.

In a wide-ranging speech designed to restate his liberal beliefs, Mr Clegg denounced the unelected upper house as "an affront to the principles of openness which underpin a modern democracy" and confirmed that a reform Bill will be introduced next year and forced through by use of the Parliament Act if necessary.

Source: Press Association 19-12-2001

I hope he can produce the good and clear out that unelected shower of old duffers to replaced with an elected second chamber, only then will we be a modern democracy.
 

MG Maniac

War Hero
Its not just the "old duffers" but the shower that Tony installed with Grace & Favour titles to make sure what he said in the lower house got through the upper house ... Mind considering Clegg has gone on record recently bleating about staying in Europe and worse .. continuing to prop up the eurozone with tax £'s ... I tend to think he's on a wind-up! Typical wet Liberal ... couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag!
 

finknottle

Banned
Its not just the "old duffers" but the shower that Tony installed with Grace & Favour titles to make sure what he said in the lower house got through the upper house ... Mind considering Clegg has gone on record recently bleating about staying in Europe and worse .. continuing to prop up the eurozone with tax £'s ... I tend to think he's on a wind-up! Typical wet Liberal ... couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag!

Not just Blair, all PM's have spooned their bankers and cronies into that rest home they call the second chamber.
 

Seaweed

War Hero
Book Reviewer
The tricky bit is that the present system allows the PM to put unwanted MPs out to grass on a handsome per diem and expenses if they live in London, with no accountability. Two hundred and fifty years ago this sinecure racket (and MEP-ships which are even more lucrative) was called jobbery. There is a useful bribery element involved because if you show any spark of independence against your party managers, these ripe apples will not fall to you. So in the case of the Lords, don't hold your breath.

Personally I think a two-tier system of elections also presents difficulties and I have a nasty suspicion that we will end up with a party-list system so the Lords will still be populated by those political appointees that have kept their nose clean (I mean in a political sense, all manner of fraud and criminality by politicians seems to be swept under the table if the miscreant is 'on message', with just the odd expendable thrown to the wolves to keep the Press happy).

Whatever we get it will be as welcome as a regurgitated dogs' breakfast, will become because of self-interest just as entrenched as the present system, and eventually we shall change it but only because the EU or the ECHR tells us to.

The advantage of an hereditary system was that it is outside the political control of any party and hereditary peers can say exactly what they like without fear or favour.
 
A

angrydoc

Guest
Absolutely Seaweed. An elected upper chamber would be no different to the Commons.

Clegg's just sabre-rattling though. Just trying to distract attention from the Europe thing, which would otherwise blow up in his face.
 

silverfox

War Hero
Moderator
Book Reviewer
Why bother with a second chamber if its to be elected? Surely one is enough? Apart from the hereditary crowd, all the others are political appointees placed there by people who were themselves elected.

Ergo by voting for a party you also vote to trust who they select as peers. No use complaining about who Blair installed as peers if you voted Labour, and vice versa.
 

finknottle

Banned
Why bother with a second chamber if its to be elected? Surely one is enough? Apart from the hereditary crowd, all the others are political appointees placed there by people who were themselves elected.

Ergo by voting for a party you also vote to trust who they select as peers. No use complaining about who Blair installed as peers if you voted Labour, and vice versa.

I agree that one elected body should be enough but if we are to have a second chamber and it looks as though we are ad infinitum they should be elected by us, that way they are accountable. If they turn out to be a complete scroat we can replace them with another scroat of our choosing.
 
A

angrydoc

Guest
I agree that one elected body should be enough but if we are to have a second chamber and it looks as though we are ad infinitum they should be elected by us, that way they are accountable. If they turn out to be a complete scroat we can replace them with another scroat of our choosing.

By your logic, there are no scrotes in the House of Commons. I think your logic is flawed.
 

fishhead

War Hero
If you're going to have to chambers rather than stuffing it with old buffers,time servers and politicos who have never stood for public office why not change the upper chamber every five years along with the Commons and each party gets to nominate a number of members in line with their share of the vote.This would give it a different balance to the main house and so not guarantee to return identical votes on issues.
 

finknottle

Banned
By your logic, there are no scrotes in the House of Commons. I think your logic is flawed.

On the contrary AD, I did say that if the second chamber was an elected chamber we the voters could elect scrotes, therefore ipso facto the elected House of Commons must be scrotes.
 
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MG Maniac

War Hero
Correct me if I'm wrong but I always thought that the 2nd house was there on behalf of the monarchy to try make sure that the idiotic rumblings of the lower house actually made sense before it became law ... so because the monarchs cronies were all the Earls/Barons/Lords etc it fell to them to hold the reins on the commons ... the fly in the ointment is the stuffin church who got the Bishops in there as well and I would agree that they are totally a waste of space (they believe in fairy stories ffs ... how can they make an educated decision regarding the laws of the land).

So if the Lower house is the representative of the people and thus are duly elected ... if we elect a upper house too does that me that we have now elected more scroats in a higher house to keep an eye on the scroats we put in the lower house? and who is keeping an eye on the lower house on behalf of the monarchy? Doesn't "The Boss" have say in all this too???? OK if she doesn't like the scroats we elect she can dissolve parliament but thats about it ... at least her upper house can throw things back at the plebs / scroats and tell them to think it through properly.

The other thing is we should stop the likes of the current PM form doleing out titles .. any title should be the sole gift of HRH ... ok she may have to approve the PM's choices but to my mind its normally only some political gimp who gets rated up! (except Tony & Broon who didn;t even get a knighthood! ha!)
 
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jjtaresq

Midshipman
Calamity Clegg is an ******** and five eighths. Here we with the economy going down the tube and wants to take up valuable time changing the way we are governed. He is at best an amiable fool and at worst a dangerous distraction
 
G

guestm

Guest
Calamity Clegg is an ******** and five eighths. Here we with the economy going down the tube and wants to take up valuable time changing the way we are governed. He is at best an amiable fool and at worst a dangerous distraction

Sockpuppet.
 
I quite liked the old house of lords. Full of people who had no regard to being elected so could say what they thought about the governments of the time policies.

Admittedly the house was more tory than labour but, they're just passing trends like the monster raving loony party, libdems etc.

Something to be said for people who dont go begging and promising the world for a vote and a life of privalage, especially if they've already got it.
 

fishface

MIA
Book Reviewer
I quite liked the old house of lords. Full of people who had no regard to being elected so could say what they thought about the governments of the time policies.

Admittedly the house was more tory than labour but, they're just passing trends like the monster raving loony party, libdems etc.

Something to be said for people who dont go begging and promising the world for a vote and a life of privalage, especially if they've already got it.

I have to agree WB. I've always thought the biggest strength of the lords was that they could voice their opinion on policy - even if considered 'wrong' - without fear of an electoral kicking from the great unwashed.
 

finknottle

Banned
I have to agree WB. I've always thought the biggest strength of the lords was that they could voice their opinion on policy - even if considered 'wrong' - without fear of an electoral kicking from the great unwashed.

Aye it must be great when you can gob- off about affairs of state without any accountably; the H of L is a bloody feudal anachronism and should be consigned to the history books.
 

fishface

MIA
Book Reviewer
Aye it must be great when you can gob- off about affairs of state without any accountably; the H of L is a bloody feudal anachronism and should be consigned to the history books.

What would be wrong with a part elected/part appointed Lords, as some have mooted recently?
 

finknottle

Banned
What would be wrong with a part elected/part appointed Lords, as some have mooted recently?

If we are destined to have a second chamber that represents the people it should in entirety be elected by the people, how any sane man could think otherwise astounds me, unless of course they do not understand what a true democracy is. We are living in the past and need to move forward.
 

fishface

MIA
Book Reviewer
If we are destined to have a second chamber that represents the people it should in entirety be elected by the people, how any sane man could think otherwise astounds me, unless of course they do not understand what a true democracy is. We are living in the past and need to move forward.

You clearly don't understand what a true democracy is finks. Otherwise you'd realise the even with an elected second chamber we still wouldn't be in a 'true democracy' as you put it. Try reading a book before you attempt to put down someones opinion.
 
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