Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by Seaweed, May 2, 2008.
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Bet their laundry is shit hot though!!
Must be a chink in the armour somewhere!
Isn't anyone else really concerned about this? Bad enough that the Chinese are capable of building more ships in a handful of years than we have in the entire RN, but now secret underground SM bases and the ability to knock out US ability to respond in the blink of an eye.
All of this and we're in the middle of a garage sale!!! Better all start learning to speak Chinese fairly quickly.
Concur S_F, but it's been brewing for years. Taken alongside renewed naval activity from the ruskies and ever-increasing competition for natural resources, it's enough to keep you up nights. So much for future threats being exclusively assymetric eh?
Maybe it is time for Brown to form a 'special relationship' with them as they are about to usurp the septics as the most powerfull nation on earth.
I've been worried about the Chinese for a couple of years S_F. Seriously, I think that we have ignored them, both militarily and economically, for way too long, and potentially at our peril.
I do have a Mandarin Chinese course somewhere, but this CT is a bit too long in the tooth now for that, so going cheap to good home
Seriously though, with China's demand for fuel predicted to rise astronomically over the next few years, they'll need it from somewhere, and being only the second superpower on the planet, they may start to usurp US dominance in the Gulf. To be honest, if you think about their "close ties" with Iran, that's probably already happening.
But why should we (as British, not as the lapdogs of the US of A) be overly concerned by the Chinese defence procurement programme? How are we being threatened by their gesture? Or is there perhaps a little element of 'big boys toys' about out attitude to the 'threat from the East' [sic] and we're a little jealous by the fact that they have what we've always wanted? :?
Possibly because we no longer have a manufacturing base,virtually all our goods come from abroad if not China itself.We have become reliant on these "cheap" countries for our goods and they now control manufacturing across the globe.We wouldnt be capable of covering the shortfall,then take the Chinese need for fossil fuels and the like.Basically if china launched an attack on taiwan,which its would dearly love to,they would be able to gauge the political will to resist them.I for one dont think the "Western Allies/NATO" would lift a finger.The Chinese just dont care about anything except The Party and the Ruling Elite in China,look at Tibet!If they wanted to attack and lose 2 to 3 million troops in the process they wouldnt bat an bloody eyelid!!!!!Over the past few years as restrtictions have been dropped both by the Chinese and The West,the transfer of Technology has occurred which now has China on a technological par to the West.China is no longer the underfunded,out of date Military Power it once was.Thats why we ought to be worried.
Hot air! But has anyone actually got any evidence to suggest that China has actively made military threats to British mainland or overseas assets? Or are we just falling for the US-originate hyperbole? :roll:
Germany did`nt make any threats to Great Britain either, but it still resulted in World War2.
What if, what if, what if... I asked for evidence rather than assumption based on xenophobic paranoia originated by Uncle Sam! :?
as long as:
a. They buy them off us (so as to provide jobs for us rather than undercutting us)
b. They don't sell or lend them onto North Korea, Burma, or other regimes such as Equatorial Guinea
c. They don't use them to intimidate Vietnam for control of the oil-rich Spratly Islands in place of peaceful, transparent, and fair diplomatic negotiations; or use them to intimidate Taiwan, then fine.
Some people say that "they have every right to build them if we do"...
For me, I'm unclear as to whether such a thing as a "right" exists. A "right" as far as I understand it, means what a society (in this case the global "society" of human governments) deems acceptable; i.e. in the best interests of all... it's entirely relative. So nobody has a "right" to build them; a "right" to stop them being built; or a "right" to stop anyone stopping them from being built.
Yes, this is a variation on "might is right"... in that "freer" countries, are generally stronger: more efficient, more reliable, more reasonable.
So with that in mind, if you accept that nuclear proliferation is acceptable, then they have a right.
If you accept that only liberal capitalist democracies should possess this ultimate technology, then they don't have a right. Rights depend on your values.
I think this is why many people intuitively react negatively to this idea, because:
a. They don't think authoritarian regimes, like the USSR, Cuba, China, Pakistan, Iran, North Korea should have control of such deadly weapons, because they are not amenable to reason, criticism and debate; nor the full collective will of their people
b. They feel afraid of what such a regime might be capable of... one that routinely, and openly oppresses dissent with aggressive religious(-style) rhetoric and violent ultimate force ...in order to survive.
We don't want to see a regional arms race like India and Pakistan between China and Taiwan...
We know why the Royal Navy, US Navy, and Marine Nationale have nukes: as a defensive legacy response to the Russians. Who exactly are the Chinese defending their coast from?
These subs are no comparison to the Astute ones.
I'm all for opening up China and exposing her to the vicissistudes of liberal democratic capitalism, but too many carrots and not enough sticks are going to allow the regime to prosper, and throw a lifeline to all the other resource-rich gangster regimes that China is only too happy to prop up in Asia and Africa.
To Squirrel... you're forgetting that China has to sell stuff to the EU and US in order to keep it's people from revolting, now that they've got used to an unsustainable growth rate...
They aren't going to take over the world... they're not capable... they (and most of the other overpopulated parts of the world) are facing mass drought and flooding with starvation and disease by the middle of this century.
They are utterly crippled by having to manage an unimaginably large population with immense endemic corruption, and pollution/land degradation issues... they are desperately trying to grab as much resources as they can to try and economically "grow" their way out of the problem; but the fact is that only the top of the pyramid gets the wealth, and only the coast gets fully developed... and most of it's resources have to be reinvested.
I just don't think China could finance a war... their own strength (population) is their greatest weakness. Even little old Britain could finish them off with a few carefully chosen strikes... they are very very vulnerable to food shortage issues now.
The bigger worry is China eventually collapsing into a new warlord period with arms proliferation ensuing and society breaking down as food and water become scarce. These subs are about more immediate concerns both in terms of geography (the Spratly Islands, and Taiwan) and time.
Anyway, we haven't got any interests in that part of the world any more, unless you count Pitcairn Island!
I personally do not think China is a threat to the world. Quite the oposite. without them the west would on its knees. Having met many Chinese people over many years they have no dreams of world dominance...Of which they could of a thousand years ago ..The threat is a lot nearer..
A pointless and unoriginal response... you can not obviously tell the difference between an argument and an alternative point of view.
Yeah, pot and kettle.
What "alternative point of view" were you trying to express?
Anyone who thinks the Chinese are not a threat is deluding themselves. Their military is expanding rapidly, the technology gap with the west is closing fast and their expanding manufacturing capacity requires ever increasing amounts of resources - which they don't have.
They have a huge expatriate population throughout Asia and in Australia and the US, (who in Australia at least, have proved where their loyalties lie with the mass display of Chinese patriotism that accompanied the Olympic torch last week) They are making increasing demands for favourable treatment in trade agreements and getting generally stroppy over issues like Tibet and Taiwan.
All this, coupled with the traditional Chinese ideas of racial superiority, makes for a somewhat disturbing scenario.
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