Changes in Basic training over the years

Discussion in 'The Quarterdeck' started by Jenny_Dabber, Oct 9, 2007.

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  1. Yes

  2. No

    0 vote(s)
  3. could well be

  4. Have no clue

    0 vote(s)
  5. other..........please state

    0 vote(s)
  1. Now, I thought this would be a good discussion;

    Reading through threads with those posting about being in Raleigh/Basic at the moment and how they have certain things i.e. the internet.

    Now back in 1999 through to possibly 2004/5 there wasn't the usage of internet for phase 1/2 trainees.

    I also remember watching one of this BBC TV series of entrants into Raleigh when I was in gus, they had lovely blankets supplied and such, where as we would catch flea bites from those disgusting fleece thingys.

    And who can’t forget the whole idea of the red/yellow card issue a few years back!

    So, does this mean that Raleigh is becoming a little less disciplined over the years, due to political correctness and such?

    Or have jack dusty and the big notches become a little more sensitive to the recruits needs?

    Answers on a post card please xx

    p.s. If there is anyone on this forum who has just finsihed with basic training or going through it, can comment on how it is now, that would be great!
  2. Gods, this'll be a right can of worms.

    It'll never be as tough as it was in ye olden days when you had to work a fourteen hour shift down t'pit before turn to, walking 30 miles, uphill both directions, in neck deep snow, IN JUNE... to get to scran... etc, etc

    Mind you, Dartmouth has never been the same since they stopped having to wear starched collars...

  3. Recently visited an opp who is working down there as an instructor, about 20 trainees were sat in what used to be a rec-room in Walker division on the internet listening to music whilst half of them were ditting on to there mums etc on mobile phones. There were a couple milling around outside eating nutty too. I'm all for progress but for fecks sake
  4. As someone who has served at Raleigh in the 80s and in the 21st Century, I don't believe it's softer - it's just different in that it takes account of different expectations of recruits and their older ages (and experiences).

    I think you'll find that every generation all the way back to Drake's days would complain about the standard of new recruits. ^~

    The main purpose of Phase 1 training is to make sure that the trainees are at the right standard to join Phase 2 specialist training. A lot of people seem to think that if the trainees don't sleep in hammocks and aren't flogged, then they are soft - there are better ways to prepare the lads & lasses for the 21st century Navy.

    Oh, and the red/yellow card thing never ever happened at Raleigh or in the RN. Everyone seems to know someone who met someone who was there at the time, but there are no first hand accounts. :confused:
  5. sgtpepperband

    sgtpepperband War Hero Moderator Book Reviewer

    Hmm, so you've based your profound opinion on a few minutes of observation, during what was clearly some 'down time' for the recruits? I feel the only person who can comment with any clarity would be an Instructor, who passed through Raleigh as a youngster and returned some years later... perhaps your 'oppo' can enlighten us?! 8?
  6. It's always going to be softer than the previous generation. It was harder in my brothers time in the mob and it was harder before that.

    Unfortunately we must move with the times the past is a past for a reason.

    I don't agree with basic trainees having nice internet access etc etc but that's me. I'm a believer they should earn these things not be given them before even passing out.

    I had to work my way up on the seats in the mess square when I joined my first ship by earning respect. The usual badges of gold do as your told!

    But I can see why mob has moved forward this way. With technology and political correctness have progressed in our modern day so must the Navy.

    If they want people to join up in the mob they have had to do something about it. Be it give them internet access during the basic training, to not telling them they're ******* useless maggots because they can't even iron their shit right. (not sure if they still iron their shirts still or not lol)

    Whether I agree with how it's run nowadays doesn't matter it's had to go in a forward direction some how.

    I had a parallel ruler whacked across my head for ******* up I can guarantee you that won't happen nowadays but I learnt from that type of discipline and never made same **** up again lol

    My opinions anyways
  7. I hated basic training in '85 but always look back on it through rose coloured spectacles as an achievment. As long as the people coming out of Raleigh have that same feeling then it has worked. We need to instill pride in the uniform, respect towards others of a greater rank/rate and a "can do" atittude that is slowly dissapearing from the mob. The best way to do this is not to kick the enthusiasm out of the new recriut when he/she joins their first draft but to encourage it. Its down to us ladies and gents.

    If you are talking about basic training you can also tie in leadership. Wasn't Royal Arthur the place to be and all others rubbish????????
  8. Wasn't it the whole point of an instrut. shouting at you to build you up? OK, sometimes it wasn't nice but then you learnt to take it with a pinch of salt, how else were they suppose to weed the weak from the strong?

    Be it I went through Raleigh in 99, to some not so long ago and to others it was long ago but the changes, well, it's only 8 weeks, I am sure a recruit can bare not having access to the et for 8 weeks. Is it a bad signal they are giving recruits these days?

    I think that rules changed too, only the PTI's could give you press ups or make you run or something. Which, in turn, would make every other class a piece of pish compared to having to run the drill ground 10 times in 11 hour because some idiot can't wait to c*ck that rifle.

    the red/yellow card thing; myth or it happened, who knows but just the thought of it!
  9. Memories......Last night of new entry (Oct 85), we were all taking the p**s out of a guy who joined up on a YTS scheme (2 years, s**t pay) to avoid going to borstal. The chief came up after lights out and ordered us all to muster in the quadrangle as we were (just nicks and barefoot) then made us all bunny hop around the quad chanting, "we are nit worthy". Character building that, especially when 2 wrens were watching us after coming back onboard after a run ashore!!!!
    What it di do was prove to us as a class that we had bonded well within just a week and we kept that strength all the way through.
  10. Im with you TattooDog, too many dits have become fact - red/yellow cards is the perfect example.

    Back to training, Internet? Well we must move with the times, for many reason, the main being the need to recruit from a population where youngsters have very different expectations to those even 5 years ago. Political correctness isn’t a bad thing either, but like all things including Health and Safety, it get abused, used as an excuse not to do things or to enforce a persons point of view or the extremes of the rules are used, without properly considering the out comes and using common sense.

    Was it harder in my days? Dont know, there were certainly differences. Some good and some bad. But without doing basic training again now, I don’t feel I can compare the two based around ditts and myths about what happens now days.
  11. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker War Hero Moderator

    Here's an interesting report:


    1. A team were tasked to search for evidence to either confirm or refute the commonly held belief that the quality of our current recruits is unsatisfactory.


    2. Individuals interviewd from accross the Fleet, and the following results recorded.

    a. There is a very low incidence of trained personnel being discharged for inadequacy and this has fallen further in recent years .
    b. Operational standards are being achieved within acceptable time-scales
    c. There is no discernible trend to suggest that it is taking longer to reach operational effectiveness.
    d. Operational effectiveness has not been lowered
    e. Operational effectiveness appears set at about the right level and that the recruits achieving it were of a satisfactory standard.
    f. Negative comments made are both difficult to substantiate or disprove but were generally not supported. To some extent these comments appear to be self-perpetuating in nature and are seemingly made by those with either little understanding of manpower issues or those who view today’s recruit through ‘it was tougher in my day’ glasses.
    g. As yesterdays’ recruits are achieving the necessary standards to move up the promotion ladder, it is reasoned that yesterday’s fears about lack of quality were unfounded. It is suggested that today’s concerns may, equally, prove to be unfounded
    h. The suggestion that Task Book ‘Lesson Plans/Teaching scripts’ should be introduced may merit further consideration
    i. Lack of discipline is seen as an issue by some, particularly a lack of respect and recognition of LHs. Use of LH instructors at Basic Training establishments was welcomed. Continued exposure during Phase 2 might further enforce the role and authority of the LH.

    General comments

    3. Levels achieved were considered to be sufficient for the rating to succeed by those at the frontline. It was considered very rare for a rating to fail to satisfactorily complete his/her task book. Overall newly trained recruits are quite capable and can (and do) reach set standards in acceptable time-scales. This is supported by a very low incidence of inadequacy discharges.

    4. The poor quality of recruits is a re-occurring theme. Remarks remain stubbornly consistent and pessimistic. The language may have altered slightly, but the meaning behind the comments made 30 years ago are surprisingly similar to those of today. The genuine concern of 30 years ago – ‘that the current intake of recruits could not provide the number or quality of Senior Rates for the future’ – did not materialise. Whilst there may have been an occasional shortage of quality candidates for promotion in some branches, most branches enjoy a strong and healthy competition for promotion. Overall the negative views expressed were not agreed. Such views are commonly expressed but are often old, regurgitated opinions rather than new, fully considered one, and are often borne from a lack of understanding of manpower issues or from a sense of frustration caused by other problems.

    5. Other re-occurring themes arising during discussions included:
    a. A perception that discharge under training had reduced because of an increased use of training extensions and branch transfers. As recruitment targets include an element for training wastage, it can be reasonably argued that such wastage is to be expected.
    b. perceptions that failure rates were connected to RT scores and that RT scores needed revision. It is understood that a recent statistical study did not support this view.
    c. a perception that educational standards have fallen (and by inference, that the quality of recruit has also fallen). The modern system of retention and bringing up to the required standard, as opposed to maintaining standards by weeding out, is seen by some as reducing the value of the qualification.
    d. comments that ratings were ill prepared for their first ship being poorly prepared for life onboard and low discipline standards. The Trainers were surprised by some of these comments.
    6. It was suggested that problems encountered with new ratings were, more often than not, to do with issues other than the ability or quality of the rating concerned. These included:
    a. The ship’s programme.
    b. Gapping. A significant problem, which can hinder employment, supervision, and task book progression.
    c.The standard or even lack of training/mentoring on board. SRs/LHs may lack Instructional Technique/Mentoring skills, be too busy or be unavailable.
    d.Faster promotion to LH/SR - results in a lack of experience to pass on.
    et was suggested that platform based ‘Lesson Plans/Teaching scripts’ for Task Book training could be of great benefit and that Instructional Technique training should be included in Command Team Training.

    7. Discipline appears to be an issue. Old style school discipline – including dress, conduct and punishments – were stronger and more conducive to Service Discipline. New style schooling means that Service discipline is totally alien to most. The introduction of LHs as trainers at training Establishments was welcomed and it was suggested that LHs should continue to play a prominent role in Phase 2 training.


    9. Notwithstanding the suggestions, Co-ordinators, are generally very content with the quality of newly trained recruits."

    Anyone like to hazard a guess when this report was produced?
  12. wet_blobby

    wet_blobby War Hero Moderator

    Your chief might have nicked that idea from my old training team, I was at raliegh around the same a bootie recruit using the GPMG ranges (tregantle?) we where mustered, bollock naked outside the accom blocks, doubled around the parade square a few times then had to jump in the water tank by the parade ground whilst our training team...straight out of harbour lights?...p1ssed on us as we practiced submerging with "nooo farrting, bubbles or ripples"....the joy of having a jock SC2 on your training team. :whew:
  13. sgtpepperband

    sgtpepperband War Hero Moderator Book Reviewer

    NS: Interesting article; where did it come from? And were the assessing personnel from the RN or an outsourced team? :?
  14. I remember our class in Jul 83, a load of us got caught throwing beds out the windows of our mess at about 2am in the morning. We were then 'doubled' upto the fire school in our nix and boots and promtly given a good hosing down for what seemed like ages, cold was an understatement - lesson learn't, we didn't do it again... well, and got caught anyway.
  15. With the report you just posted and them mentioning LH's as instructs. I'm guessing that was done in the mid 90's?

    Or will you slap me for getting it wrong and say it was only last month :dwarf:
  16. wet_blobby

    wet_blobby War Hero Moderator

    I take it no-one here has heard of "Excellence creep" or what ever the word was. It is basically when you get instructers with a "in my day attitude" who look back with rose tinted glasses and try and make things harder for recruits/trainees because they belive the hype about things being so much tougher "in there day" when in fact it wasn't, it just seemed more difficult at the time because they were new to it all themselves once.
  17. Ahhh there is that but they did introduce the fact that no-one apart from PTI's could give a beasting, which took the fun and games out, that was around 2003, i think. I stand corrected there though.
  18. Read your history: every generation of old hands has complained about the training of new recruits as being soft compared to their day. When I was at school in the 60s and 70s you got routinely hit and humiliated by the staff. These days they'd go to prison for some of the things they got away with - and rightly so too. Times must move on.

    J_D I thought you joined up ages ago!

    By the way, that Raleigh prog you were referring to: was it BBC2's 'Nozzers' by any chance? I have a recording of it at home.
  19. It may well be, if it was around may 2003, then yep.

    Oh no, I joined up in 99, not an old codger yet lol
  20. At a guess - about 100 years ago? They said it when I joined, and they're still saying it.

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