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Canadians, French, U.S. Hunt For Submarine Off Scotland

http://aviationweek.com/defense/canadians-french-us-hunt-submarine-scotland

Maritime patrol aircraft (MPAs) from France, Canada and the U.S. conducted patrols in conjunction with British surface warships in the search for the submarine in late November and the first week of December, operating out of RAF Lossiemouth in northern Scotland.

At the height of the operation, aircraft involved in the hunt included two U.S. Navy P-3 Orions, a single CP-140 Aurora from the Royal Canadian Air Force and a DassaultAtlantique 2 of the French navy. Also involved was one of the U.K.’s Raytheon Sentinel radar-reconnaissance aircraft.

The U.K. defense ministry and the participating air arms have not confirmed they were hunting for a submarine. But a U.K. defense ministry spokesman told Aviation Week that Britain had “requested assistance from allied forces for basing of maritime patrol aircraft at RAF Lossiemouth for a limited period.

The aircraft are conducting Maritime Patrol activity with the Royal Navy; we do not discuss the detail of maritime operations."

Good thing we have all those T23s in Fleet Time, fully manned, nil OPDEF.
 

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
Time for the RN ASW merlins to show their worth

Personally I don't think thats such a bad idea. The Defence budget may well be hammered after the next CSR and SDSR, so if we want T26 in sufficient numbers perhaps we should prove we can do more with what we have.
Of course this will be hugely unpopular, moving flights up to Gannet and/or Lossie/Leuchars on rotation but such is life.

MMA may be an answer but it's only one possible answer and if we want to grow the Navy and get manning back to a sensible level then perhaps we need to be more innovative and take risk?
 

WreckerL

War Hero
Super Moderator
You need a boat to catch a boat, no matter what the woo/ASW fraternity like to think, problem is, we haven't got enough of them either :(
 

drewfester

Lantern Swinger
Personally I don't think thats such a bad idea. The Defence budget may well be hammered after the next CSR and SDSR, so if we want T26 in sufficient numbers perhaps we should prove we can do more with what we have.
Of course this will be hugely unpopular, moving flights up to Gannet and/or Lossie/Leuchars on rotation but such is life.

MMA may be an answer but it's only one possible answer and if we want to grow the Navy and get manning back to a sensible level then perhaps we need to be more innovative and take risk?

Disagree with you there WD, if we prove we can do more with what we currently have, we will get even less T26 and possibly none at all!!
 

Dredd

War Hero
Super Moderator
Disagree with you there WD, if we prove we can do more with what we currently have, we will get even less T26 and possibly none at all!!

Not necessarily.

"Look at what we managed to do with one of these. NOW, imagine what we could do with one of THOSE!"
 

Seaweed

War Hero
Book Reviewer
I think the RN must be the only major navy in the world not to have direct control of what used to be called LRMP.

How the Crabs were allowed to jeopardise the credibility of the deterrent by unilaterally withdrawing LRMP I can't think, except of course was not CDS at the time a Crab?

The follow-on programme was clearly long past when it should have been binned but that did not technically exclude investing in a completely different but effective replacement.

The UK has been had for a fool.
 

drewfester

Lantern Swinger
Not necessarily.

"Look at what we managed to do with one of these. NOW, imagine what we could do with one of THOSE!"

And then someone says "it's only £1 billion......each" and instantly the difference between what the RN wants and what it gets, gets far bigger.
Just look at T45, we wanted 12, got told we could have 8, and in the end got 6. That's how it will work as once again who ever builds them (BAE probably) will hype the capability up the ying yang and with the cost, those in charge will take a sharp intake of breath and say well it's a more capable platform, so they won't need as many and we save money too!
That's more or less what went on with T45.
 

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
Disagree with you there WD, if we prove we can do more with what we currently have, we will get even less T26 and possibly none at all!!

Trust me, the questions are already being asked. You've got ASW assets and you're not using them, but you want more, why?

It becomes a significantly harder case to justify and the increasingly harsh financial climate you don't want to be making it harder for yourself.
 
You've got ASW assets and you're not using them, but you want more, why?

That is, indeed, what the career centred buggers in the middle of the MoD ask. Remind me, how many "swing role" Merlins went bug hunting with ARGUS and how many others have been re rolled across the Globe?

As a point of accuracy, the crabforce didn't gash the MRA capability. It was done for them by the Government, ably assisted by an incompetent and weak IPT in DE&S (actually, the idiocy pre-dates DE&S).
 

clonmel

Lantern Swinger
I think the RN must be the only major navy in the world not to have direct control of what used to be called LRMP.

How the Crabs were allowed to jeopardise the credibility of the deterrent by unilaterally withdrawing LRMP I can't think, except of course was not CDS at the time a Crab?

The follow-on programme was clearly long past when it should have been binned but that did not technically exclude investing in a completely different but effective replacement.

The UK has been had for a fool.

Except, of course, that there was no f***ing money. At all.
 

Magic_Mushroom

War Hero
I think the RN must be the only major navy in the world not to have direct control of what used to be called LRMP.

It may depend on what you consider a major navy Seaweed. However, of our key 5-eyes and NATO allies, only the US, Canada, Australia, NZ, Norway and France retain a realistic fixed wing ASW capability. Of these, Australia, Canada, Norway, and NZ all assign their MPAs to their respective air forces. Likewise, the RAF remains the lead service for not only UK fixed wing MPA but also ironically NATO doctrine and policy for the same.

If us dastardly crustaceans are so intent on killing off the UK's MPA capability, you may also wish to reflect on our actions after the cancellation of the MRA4. Within a few months, the RAF (with the connivance of the evil Lord Stirrup) had quietly diverted over 30 of its most experienced ISR aircrew and self-funded the Seedcorn programme. This entailed gapping key posts in our ISR fleets despite Afghanistan and growing demand for Reaper, Shadow and Sentinel. Meanwhile we negotiated the placement of Seedcorn aircrew on USN P-3C, P-8A, MQ-4C and other maritime RPAS, RCAF CP-140, RAAF AP-3C and RNZAF P-3K as well as additional related ground posts elsewhere. I would argue that that was one of the most far sighted decisions from SDSR10 and the primary reason why the UK is well positioned to regenerate a fixed wing MPA/MMA capability in the near future.

Indeed, the RAF arguably has the most experienced P-8 operators in the World, individuals who did rather better than their hosts in a recent USN ASW competition. Of the Seedcorn guys who went elsewhere, most were quickly placed into supervisory and trials positions with the respective services requesting extensions due to their skills.

But hey, why let facts get in the way of personal prejudices eh?

Regards,
MM
 

Seaweed

War Hero
Book Reviewer
Thank you, I am better informed, although I'm not sure NZ counts as 'major' with two frigates, and I think neither the RAN nor the RCN, DD/FF helicopters apart, do fixed-wing maritime aviation any longer. What about India?

Good show keeping the skills up but there stills seems to be a deficit on actually protecting the deterrent or more particularly safeguarding it from prying ears when it sorties for a patrol.
 
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