Can someone please explain why treason does not apply

Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by flymo, Jul 26, 2007.

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  1. "Extremist students are sentenced"

    "Recorder of London Judge Peter Beaumont said the group had prepared to train in Pakistan and then fight in Afghanistan against its allies, which included British soldiers."
  2. I would imagine it is because Treason is a Common Law crime and it is easier to prosecute under one of the many, many anti terrorism statutes?
  3. Hmm, they got off blinking lightly then
  4. Actually, my apologies I lie!

    Treason is also a crime under statute - High Treason Act 1351 (Amended 1945) and the Treachery Act 1940. But the reasoning is the same. We have specific ant terrorism statutes which are likely easier to prosecute under.
  5. If they have the evidence to convict as treason then they should be tried under that, it would certainly send the right message that if you are British you don't act against your own country.. :thumright:
  6. Would what be the punishment though?

    We don't hang traitors, do we?
  7. I find myself agreeing with Dhoby bucket. A couple of years inside is only going to harden them, when they come out they will go back to their old ways. Now a life sentence for treason, that would give out the right message. these youngsters want to be martyrs and get their virgins, not by locked up for twenty or thirty years.
  8. Easy, repatriate them to their country of choice and afterwards let out that they sang like canaries, won't be long before they get what's coming to them, keeps the Governments hands clean..or just follow them and use extreme prejudice from a local of course... :thumright:
  9. This, again on the BBC, provides an assessment of what happened. Appreciate it's probably not all that palatable to the more Stalinist contributors though.
  10. And which country of their choice is likely to take in a collection of British criminals.
  11. You're missing the point Kama, they are only criminals here, Hero's and martyrs elsewhere. So lets send them where they can be happy as hero's.
    Any Muslim state that will take them!
    As an aside, most of them will do that for a fee.

  12. Before we consider using the Treachery Act against these men we should be applying it to:-

    Antony Charles Lynton Bliar

    Sir John McLeod Scarlett

    Baron Peter Henry Goldsmith

    Watch your fingers..............clang!!!

    [Remember war is simply God's way of teaching Americans geography]

  13. They're also British nationals, and I don't imagine there are any governments that would willingly take them. The few where their particular flavour of Islam is palatable to the government wouldn't want to upset the US by sanctioning their position.

    Only according to the rather warped version of Islam that they've been indoctrinated in.

    So you're suggesting that human trafficking is an acceptable course of action then?
  14. Treason does apply if they are British, but don't expect the pinko legal establishment to play. The politicos in positions of power are mainly of the legal persuasion as well, so you're on a hiding to nothing if you're expecting to see JCBs used in the Iranian way.
  15. Seaweed

    Seaweed War Hero Book Reviewer

    Treason is levying war against the State. We funked this definition when the IRA wwere doing just that. Fat chance our Govt has the guts to push past the pinko left-wing lily-livered commie loonies and apply it now.
  16. Am I incorrect in thinking then that there are still two offences that carry the death penalty on the statute books - namely treason and arson in HM Dockyards (although highly unlikely ever to be implemented!)
  17. The very least they can do is send them to an Islamic state!
  18. High Treason Act 1351 (Amended 1945)
    High Treason (the highest form of treason - against the King/Queen) is the act committed when an allegiance, which is owed by a citizen, is broken. A citizen of a country owes a duty of allegiance in return for receiving the protection of that country's head of state. Consequently, treason is viewed as an extremely, if not the most, serious offence a citizen can commit.

    The essential points which the prosecution needs to prove beyond reasonable doubt in a treason trial are

    Did the person do the acts alleged in the charge (for example make radio broadcasts).

    Does the person have a duty of allegiance to the head of state (for example the British King/Queen).

    Only when both points are proved beyond reasonable doubt can the prisoner be found guilty of High Treason.

    Treason trials often resolve around questions of establishing whether allegiance is owed. If it's not owed, the person can't commit High Treason. There are two types of allegiance: permanent and temporary.

    An example of permanent allegiance is that derived through being a national of a country. For example, I'm a British Citizen, and will remain one until I renounce my citizenship (only possible for a British citizen after the Naturalisation Act 1870). Wherever I am in the world I am a British citizen, hence, the permanent nature. The actual and physical ability of a head of state to actually exercise their obligation of protection whilst their subject is abroad was judged as irrelevant.

    Temporary allegiance can be gained in several ways (as William Joyce found out to his cost). For example, if you visit or live in another country outside your home country, you have a duty of allegiance to the head of state of that other country. So if I, a British citizen, visit France I have a temporary allegiance to the French state whilst I'm on French territory. For this temporary allegiance, the French state will protect me whilst I'm on their territory. Once I leave France, I lose their protection and they lose my allegiance. As I said before, I still owe allegiance to the British head of state as I'm a British citizen.

    Temporary allegiance can also be gained through, in the William Joyce case, a British Passport. William Joyce was born in New York, the son of an naturalised Irish American Father. In 1939 William Joyce left the U.K and travelled to Hitler's Germany just before the U.K declared war on Germany. For his journey to Germany he used a British Passport. By having a British Passport, the holder is entitled to the protection of the British Head of State (King George VI at the time). The fact the King, through his Government, was in no position to offer protection, should Joyce need it, was judged as no defence. While in Germany, and after war had been declared but before his British Passport expired, Joyce made several Propaganda radio broadcasts. It was these broadcasts made before his British Passport expired that made William Joyce guilty of High Treason.

    Treachery Act 1940
    The Treachery Act 1940 has no need to establish allegiance. To find someone guilty under the Treachery Act, all that is required is to show that the acts the accused committed, or intended to commit, would endanger the forces of the crown including personnel as well as physical objects. If found guilty of the appropriate section of the act, the mandatory sentence was death.

    These requirements are expressed in Section 1 of the Treachery Act:

    If, with intent to help the enemy, any person does, or attempts or conspires with any other person to do any act which is designed or likely to give assistance to the naval, military or air operations of the enemy, to impede such operations of His Majesty's forces, or to endanger life, shall be guilty of felony and shall on conviction suffer death.

    From a very helpful website
  19. You cannot deport people to a country they have not come from. They could only be deported to Britain as that is there, like it or not, country.

    From the newspaper article I can see no evidence for treason as they have not, at that stage made plans for, or carried out any treasonable overt act against the UK. To have a charge of treason you need to have had an overt act or the planning of such an act not just an abstract thought that I will get myself trained and then carry out an act of war or similar against the UK or its Representatives abroad. If we are talking abstract thoughts then most of you are on offer for "I will kill he ******* bastard" You are all murders, I think not lets not get out th sledge hammer to crack the egg.

  20. Khama
    Yup, at least they will get out of it alive, which is more than can be said for most of their victims.

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