Can Israel maintain it's borders over the next 20 years

Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by w.anchor, Nov 28, 2007.

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  1. Can Israel maintain it's present borders over the next 20 years.If it's main backer the U.S.A. Begins to lose it's place as a world number one super power.Given that any decline in U.S. power will be a slow but probability inevitable process.
     
  2. More than likely - Uncle Sam's best testing ground for all it's new toys is Israel - F15s and 16s, plus all the AA and ASMs. Not forgetting that Yehudi has his own buckets of instant sunshine if things get really tough - and no American hand on the trigger.......
     
  3. On the talk of Borders quite possibly, on the basis that the Wall is seen as working, but I saw perhaps first on Newsnight, that since the building of the Wall, suicide bombings in Israel have seen a dramatic fall, in 2002 289 Israelis died as a result of Palestinian related terrorism, in 2006 that fell to 23.

    One must accept that whether the wall is right or wrong, it is saving innocent lives from Terrorism.

    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier#_note-McClatchy

    Israel is the only stable democracy in the Middle-East, even the Palestinian Authority was subject to a coup in the Gaza Strip by Hamas.
     
  4. Potential officer I,ve just Googled the Washington Post.They report That Hamas won a election by 132 seats to Fatah 76 seats no word of a coup.Given that the election was crawling with Western observers how did they miss your coup.
     
  5. No, the coup I mentioned was the over-throwing the power of Mahmoud Abbass, President of the Palestinian Authority, by Hamas in the Gaza strip, in the elections for the Assembly, Hamas won. So they won the Assembly, but the President was Fatah.
     
  6. Just because the outcome doesn't suit your opinion, doesn't mean that it was any less legitimate.
     
  7. The politics in that part of the world are very complex.Coups elections peace talks.The names of faction and party leaders change by the week.
    So it is very easy of some one to deliberately miss match events and dates to spin a point to suite themselves. Its a well used technique but no one would do that here would they.
     
  8. Will the Israel's borders be changed by force? Unlikely - there isn't anyone on any side of the country that could militarily defeat the IDF.

    Could they change through diplomacy? Most likely. Certainly the noises that Ehud Olmert has been making seem to indicate a realisation that a defined Palestinian nation (which there has never been in history) is the only way ahead. There are still key issues to be addressed, not least what to do with Israel settlements in Palestianian controlled areas, the question of Jerusalem as capital (personally, I think the ideas that Tom Clancy has in one of the Jack Ryan books has merit, that of declaring Jerusalem an international city), and the question of repatriating displaced Palestinians (much to the relief of Jordon, Syria and Lebanon).
     
  9. The short answer is an emphatic "No" and the reasons are purely economic.

    U.S. Aid to Israel

    U.S. Financial Aid To Israel: Figures, Facts, and Impact

    Summary
    Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
    Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

    Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
    $74,157,600,000

    Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
    $9,047,227,200

    Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
    $1,650,000,000

    Grand Total
    $84,854,827,200

    Total Benefits per Israeli
    $14,630


    Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
    Aid to Israel

    Grand Total
    $84,854,827,200

    Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
    $49,936,680,000

    Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
    $134,791,507,200

    Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
    $23,240


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The value of the US$ has plunged and it is hopefully impossible for it to regain it's status as the world's leading trading currency; that status will be assumed by the Euro and the US$ will decline further. The impact that this will have on Israel will be immense as the US taxpayer trough on which Israeli has depended suddenly runs empty.

    RM
     
  10. The problem with Israeli borders is that they mean different things to different people. The hard-line Zionists are reluctant to give up an inch of the occupied territory. The neighbours realise that they can't beat them back in a symmetric war and will remember being snotted for their troubles earlier. Guerrilla warfare is the only sensible option, like it or not, open to the opposition.

    The '67 war gave the Israelis a more defendable border. The original border did place them at a tactical disadvantage and they will be reluctant to return to it. They could p**s off the Settlers and pull back with an agreed demilitarised buffer zone. It only takes a few nutters to defy their right to exist to make that impossible/unwise, of course.

    The solution was to never have put the buggers there in the first place!
     
  11. Maybe so, but we need to find somewhere else for them to go.

    How about we give them Sudan? As of tomorrow morning.

    All those in favour say, 'Aye!'
     
  12. So far I go along with Bergen and Loggie.No one in the area is going To Take on I.D.F. head on it would be madness Although they did come out of the Lebanon with very few if any of there original goals achieved.
    Dose any one have a view on the U.N. resolution 242.
     
  13. The IDF came out of Lebanon with a decidedly bloodied nose and Hassan Nasrallah left the Israelis in doubt that if the IDF wanted more of the same then he and Hesb'allah had plenty more waiting for them. The fact that one of Israels newer ships the INS Ahi-Hanit took a hit from a trailer launched Silk Worm was a real wake up call.

    As for UN Resolution 242.............badly written and badly constructed. It leaves Israel with enough wriggle room to interpret the resolution in the way that Israel wants to interpret it which means that the original intent of getting Israel out of the captured territories has been avoided and obfuscated by the Israelis with the help of the USA.

    RM
     
  14. How can the overthrow of a civil power by a terrorist organisation by force, ever be legitimate?
     
  15. wet_blobby

    wet_blobby War Hero Moderator

    What like them pesky americans in the time of George the 3rd?
     
  16. What...like the British leaving Palestine after the Israeli terrorists led by Menachim Begin and Ariel Sharon had started targeting them; culminating in destruction of the King David Hotel and multiple British civilian and military casualties?

    In February of 1944, under the new leadership of Menachem Begin, Irgun resumed hostilities against the British authorities. The purpose of these attacks was to bring public attention to the cost and ineffectiveness of the British mandatory rule. It included attacks on prominent symbols of the British administration, including British military, police, and civil headquarters at the King David Hotel and the British prison in Acre. Although these attacks were largely successful, several Irgun operatives were captured, convicted, and hanged. Refusing to accept the jurisdiction of the British courts, those accused refused to defend themselves. The Irgun leadership ultimately responded to these executions by hanging two British sergeants, which effectively brought the executions to an end.
    Following the murder of Lord Moyne by Lehi, the Yishuv and Jewish Agency initiated "The Hunting Season" on Irgun and the Lehi group, facilitating the arrest of some 1000 members of those organizations who were interned in British camps. The British deported 251 of them to camps in Africa.
    From about October of 1945 until July 1946 Irgun was in an alliance with the Haganah and Lehi called the Jewish Resistance Movement, organized to fight British restrictions on Jewish immigration. This alliance ended when Irgun bombed British military, police, and civil headquarters at the King David Hotel as a retaliation for Operation Agatha.


    RM
     
  17. Fine Civil democratically elected Executive branch of government.

    Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah was the democratically elected President of the Palestinian Authority, just because the Gaza Strip voted for Hamas does not mean that they can over throw the power of the President.
     
  18. Abu Mazen was thrown out of office because he and Fatah were seen by most Palestinians as corrupt. He had also been attempting to bar the democratically elected Hamas Cabinet and Prime Minister from operating.

    In truth if the overthrow of democratically elected governments were prohibited then the CIA would be out of a job :thumright: .............................................. Iran, Iraq, Chile, Guatemala, El Salvador, Peru, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, Congo, Haiti, Venezuala, Nicaragua etc etc.

    RM
     
  19. This is serious money all most as much as we give the Jocks :dwarf:
     
  20. Can we answer a question without saying but the UK has done it or the CIA has done it. Whether it is done by the CIA, HMG or armed Terrorists in the streets of Gaza, an armed, violent uprising against a Democratically elected Executive Government, in a Democratic system, cannot be justified.

    Gordon Brown's Government is increasingly seen by Englishmen as corrupt, do we violently rise up against him? The Scots would argue that perhaps he is restricting the Scots Parliament from operating by giving them a reduced pay out, do they rise up?

    Of course not, Democracy means if you do not like them you use the ballot not the bullet.
     

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