Bye to the .556 round?

Oil_Slick said:
seafarer1939 said:
See the Yanks are starting to introduce a new rifle for close quarters with a 0.68 round.
Saw it on the future weapons programme and it stops everything in it's path.
There has long been speculation re.the 0.556 having not much kinetic energy and it seems a person once shot by the M16 turned around and looked at the chap who shot him not knowing he had been shot!
Another armourer once told me the tumbling bullet was made out to be more than it was,you need a round that will knock someone down.

I don't know why we went for the 0.556,top long range accuracy is not paramount any more,close quarters seems the mode of most engagements nowadays and you need to put a man down not drill a hole through him.
Just my take and probably wrong in a lot but seems the Yanks have decided to have more stopping power,will we follow?I doubt it.
Who has the advantage if an AK47 tears your arm off with a round and a SA80 drills a hole thru you?
Guess I need a combat expert to put some slant on this as apart from being an ex-armourer,I have no experience on combat.


Where to start…

Firstly you mean 6.8 SPC not .68… a .68" round would have a recoil that would bust your shoulder.

The 6.8 SPC is only in use by SOCOM IIRC in the States with no further roll out envisiged. It's not the be all and end all. It's terminal ballistics are not too stellar beyond 300m. 6.5mm Grendel is a better all round solution.


5.56 lacks kinetic energy? Stand 600m away and tell someone with a 5.56 rifle that. You'll end up with a terminally bad headache.

There is no such thing as 'knock down' power. You kill a target by hitting something critical, brain, heart, spine.

'Knock down power' only exists in Hollywood movies. If a 7.62mm round had enough kinetic energy to knock a target off it's feet, it would do the same to the guy shooting it. Newtons Laws are immutable.

7.62 will go through you just as readily as a 5.56. If you're hit by a 5.56 you will be very well aware of that fact.

No need for long range accuracy? Tell that to the people fighting in the sandy places.

An AK47 round does not 'tear your arm off' and it is a very poor round for accuracy.

The 5.56 does lack kinetic energy. Fact is you cannot get a 22 calibre round to do what a 30 calibre round does. 600 mtrs? one assumes that the target will be hit.

Knock down power does exist, but is very hard to quantify, it means that the round does not kill but puts the person out of the fight at least for a short time.

Both rounds will go through a human body, but the 30 calibre leaves a more lasting impression.
 

Ships_Cat

War Hero
The scuttle I read suggests that US SF units are clamouring for 6.8x43mm Remington SPC cartridge based systems, I haven't read enough guns n saddo mags to find out which weapon won the procurement battle but its the old story, bigger round for impact energy, smaller case for more rounds, strike balance between.

Anecdotally (or empirically...), I found 5.56 rifles better for higher rates of single shot, shift target and fire. Easier to draw down and send 10 rds down the range at 600m. The big bonus of 5.56 was you can carry about 50% more than 7.62, eg 32rd mags vs 20rd mags. 7.62 better for longer ranges, doesnt seem to suffer in crosswinds as much, but that could just be down to rifling and twist rate in barrel fired from. Most HRT and police MM/SWAT units seem to be using .303 winchester caliber, (v close to 7.62x51), with Remington 700's and the like, also favoured by deer hunters in the US, although the .338 lapua is getting a lot more attention now. Brings us nicely back to the Ghillies I spose. Whats good for bringing down game is good for the other.

I expect if we ask a modern gunner whether he'd prefer his para minimi to the GPMG he'd stick with more ammo, whereas older salts prefer the bigger hitter. Depends on engagement range and whether you have to run around with the thing. Smaller units get to choose so I expect the 6.8 SPC will see adoption there, but in general service, given the amount of inventory around the world using 5.56 I dont think we will see the back of it for a long time yet.
 

Bergen

ADC
The British always seem to be a day late and a dollar short when it comes to Infantry weapons. They talked themselves into changing from 7.62mm to 5.56mm partly because they were blinded by the US standardisation of 5.56mm and partly because the SA-80 seemed a weapon better suited for urban conflicts such as NI.

Anyone who used .303" sniper rifles knew that using MMG 8Z ammunition would produce a higher muzzle velocity with a flatter trajectory and more recoil. The MV was certainly on par with the 2740 fps of 7.62mm rounds fired from SLR's.

The eternal argument about calibre vs muzzle velocity is always intriguing but basic Newtonian physics [Second Law; momentum is the product of mass and velocity] means that there will always be a trade-off between the two. Can a 5.56mm round produce as much energy as a 7.62mm round?? Absolutely. BUT not at presently achievable muzzle velocities.

RM
 

Ships_Cat

War Hero
Bergen said:
The British always seem to be a day late and a dollar short when it comes to Infantry weapons.
That and every other item of kit we use....from clicky beds, rations, stoves, clothing, webbing (tac vest), boots to, er, Bergens, we look like tramps when we go on joint exercises compared to our US brethren.

Bergen said:
They talked themselves into changing from 7.62mm to 5.56mm partly because they were blinded by the US standardisation of 5.56mm and partly because the SA-80 seemed a weapon better suited for urban conflicts such as NI.
The bullpup config, better for urban fighting, apart from the tricky problems of left hand corners... I suppose it did on the whole make better shooters out of the rest of the military who only ever handled rifles on re-quals, and its a handy piece of kit with the ski sling on when you are not using it, but it took far to long to sort it into A2 form, and thats nothing to do with the weapon, but the management structures we used to develop it.

Bergen said:
Anyone who used .303" sniper rifles knew that using MMG 8Z ammunition would produce a higher muzzle velocity with a flatter trajectory and more recoil. The MV was certainly on par with the 2740 fps of 7.62mm rounds fired from SLR's.
The MV of the SA80 was claimed as 940m/s, 3083fps in old money, certainly had the desired effect on trajectory at 300m as far as I could tell.

Bergen said:
The eternal argument about calibre vs muzzle velocity is always intriguing but basic Newtonian physics [Second Law; momentum is the product of mass and velocity] means that there will always be a trade-off between the two. Can a 5.56mm round produce as much energy as a 7.62mm round?? Absolutely. BUT not at presently achievable muzzle velocities.
I believe such studies have been tried, to do with the mass of the round (gr. of the "bullet"), and powder, upping the MV, but no real success, or the evaluations state that the 5.56 is fine as is....

From Small caliber lethality: 5.56MM performance in close quarters battle.
From: Infantry Magazine Date: 9/1/2006 Author: Dean, Glenn; Lafontaine, David
Take an average M855 round, the standard round of "green-tip" rifle ammunition used by U.S. forces in both the M4 and M16 series weapons and in the M249 SAW. The 62-grain projectile has an exterior copper jacket, a lead core, and a center steel penetrator designed to punch through steel or body armor. An M16 launches the M855 at roughly 3,050 feet per second, and the M855 follows a ballistic trajectory to its target, rotating about its axis the entire way, and gradually slowing down. Eventually, the bullet slows enough that it becomes unstable and wanders from its flight path, though this does not typically happen within the primary ranges of rifle engagements (0-600m)
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-158733704.html
 
Didn't I read something about NATO forces being able to utilise WP ammunition for their weapons in the days of 7.62 or was it the other way 'round'?
 

seafarer1939

War Hero
Don't want to get in to any tit for tat about something I know nothing of that's why I asked the question except:
One of my sons is serving in the Mid East Zone and seen his fair share of action more than he cares to tell me,he knows he has seen Thompsons in the hands of some US soldiers because he queried it,he also said most of the action was less than 100/200 yards so the part from the US handbook was correct.
It's pretty obvious that a smaller calibre will be more accurate,even I know that from my armourer days but,as a final comment from me,look at the previous thread re.the SA 80 you will find that someone posted saying the AK was not accurate but the Israelies had sorted out that problem if needed.
My point is the fact that with more and more funds channelled to Affiestan the Tallies will be in body armour and with night sights.With a son out there that's my concern
I also know AKs do jam but not often as the works are basic.Regards
 

Ships_Cat

War Hero
Naval_Gazer said:
Didn't I read something about NATO forces being able to utilise WP ammunition for their weapons in the days of 7.62 or was it the other way 'round'?
Last thing I read was the kerfuffle (court cases) about the USMC using WP weapons in Fallujah, but I don't remember rifle calibers being mentioned, I think they were referring to their use of phos. grenades to clear rooms. I think they might have also used the old trick of a dab of phos on top of trip flares to cause anyone illumnated by said flare to receive a distinctive and indelible burn pattern through clothing and skin, preventing them from escaping the city with civ.pop. and evading capture. But that would be illegal under Geneva conventions so it must not have happened....
 

Ships_Cat

War Hero
seafarer1939 said:
One of my sons is serving in the Mid East Zone and seen his fair share of action more than he cares to tell me,he knows he has seen Thompsons in the hands of some US soldiers because he queried it,he also said most of the action was less than 100/200 yards so the part from the US handbook was correct.
Dont doubt that, I believe there are more than a few thompsons left over from the anti-USSR days, good blowback weapon in .45ACP, simple, doesnt require a lot of cleaning. Hard to argue with up close. Ammos kind of expensive compared to most military spec, but I think they have a shedload left over from conversion from 1911 to Beretta M9, probably all out of date by now anyway


seafarer1939 said:
It's pretty obvious that a smaller calibre will be more accurate,even I know that from my armourer days but,as a final comment from me,look at the previous thread re.the SA 80 you will find that someone posted saying the AK was not accurate but the Israelis had sorted out that problem if needed.
I think with the various AK derivatives they can do pretty much anything they want. I know the 5.56x45mm (NATO) variant is now touted as an export weapon, police and paramilitary sales, since for the AK74M/U they went with 5.45x39mm , but its original brief was to allow the operator to use ammo he would be able to procure on site.....


seafarer1939 said:
My point is the fact that with more and more funds channelled to Affiestan the Tallies will be in body armour and with night sights.With a son out there that's my concern
I also know AKs do jam but not often as the works are basic.Regards
Things are a changing, thats for sure. I hope the buggers aren't able to buy or steal too many .50 cal rifles, AI or Barret etc., its bad enough they have dragunovs.
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
If you want an 'accurate' AK47 you can make one. The truly excellent SIG 55x series rifles are based upon the AK's design, but they do cost and arm and leg and are chambered in… you guessed it, 5.56mm
 

Bergen

ADC
Ships_Cat said:
seafarer1939 said:
One of my sons is serving in the Mid East Zone and seen his fair share of action more than he cares to tell me,he knows he has seen Thompsons in the hands of some US soldiers because he queried it,he also said most of the action was less than 100/200 yards so the part from the US handbook was correct.
Dont doubt that, I believe there are more than a few thompsons left over from the anti-USSR days, good blowback weapon in .45ACP, simple, doesnt require a lot of cleaning. Hard to argue with up close. Ammos kind of expensive compared to most military spec, but I think they have a shedload left over from conversion from 1911 to Beretta M9, probably all out of date by now anyway


seafarer1939 said:
It's pretty obvious that a smaller calibre will be more accurate,even I know that from my armourer days but,as a final comment from me,look at the previous thread re.the SA 80 you will find that someone posted saying the AK was not accurate but the Israelis had sorted out that problem if needed.
I think with the various AK derivatives they can do pretty much anything they want. I know the 5.56x45mm (NATO) variant is now touted as an export weapon, police and paramilitary sales, since for the AK74M/U they went with 5.45x39mm , but its original brief was to allow the operator to use ammo he would be able to procure on site.....


seafarer1939 said:
My point is the fact that with more and more funds channelled to Affiestan the Tallies will be in body armour and with night sights.With a son out there that's my concern
I also know AKs do jam but not often as the works are basic.Regards
Things are a changing, thats for sure. I hope the buggers aren't able to buy or steal too many .50 cal rifles, AI or Barret etc., its bad enough they have dragunovs.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but the Iranians took delivery of 800 Austrian Steyr HS50 long range sniper rifles [.50" cal] in 2006 and are presently mass producing a 12.7mm version themselves.

Meanwhile for everything Avtomat Kalashnikova - http://www.ak-47.us/Finland.php

RM
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
Re Thompsons in Iraq… just asked a few US bods 'over there'… no .45 ball in the food chain and no one has seen one, but their guys have used 'pick up' Iraqi PPsh's from time to time… to a non expert it could easily be mistaken for a 'Tommy Gun' except it fires 7.62x25

PPSh_1.jpg


PPSh_2.jpg

US Marines with an (M4's) and PPsh's in Fallujah


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/34/73493273_284e2bb43d_o.jpg
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
Bergen said:
[


Hate to be the bearer of bad news but the Iranians took delivery of 800 Austrian Steyr HS50 long range sniper rifles [.50" cal] in 2006 and are presently mass producing a 12.7mm version themselves.

RM


US have already taken confirmed kills from those rifles and 100 odd were recovered during raids in Baghdad last year.
 

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