Brexit re article 50 it must not be suspended/stopped under any circumstances Please sign the petition

Levers_Aligned

War Hero
Moderator
#61
@Levers_Aligned is very big on democracy or the lack of it as he sees it but it is more than clear that the democratic system has been adhered to thus far but is at serious risk of being abused by those that refuse to accept a democratic vote. It is true only just only 17 million registered electors voted for Brexit but even fewer voted to remain. The remainder it must be assumed didn't care one way or the other so must be ruled out of the equation.
since the referendum we have had a General election where both the main parties said they would carry out the wishes of the electorate and take us out of the EU so I would argue that the voters have had two chances to reject Brexit and took neither.
Politicians being politicians are quick at forgetting their manifesto policies as soon as their knees are under the table and the wishes of the electorate are distant memory compared with their own machinations.
For the record, I'm in favour of us exiting the European Union, in accordance with the outcome of the referendum and the direction of motion of the current government. I don't want to exit the European Union, because there is no reason to do so to change our situation for the better, and no one has shown me any proof so far to the contrary, despite me asking people to. When asked, people strangely go a bit quiet, or revert to insults, or start pressing the 'unlike' button, as if that explains anything.

I am however unsurprised at the abject paralysis which currently exists, and unsurprised that Brexiters fail to own this as a result of their actions. If, by pure dint of voting 'leave' we should simply go out of the European Union with our economic, political and constitutional situation more favourable, if we'd simply establish more favourable trade deals immediately and if it made this country a more prosperous place to live in, then I'd like to hear people's thoughts on how before they voted, versus how they'd do it now. Simply 'leaving' is idiotic and suicidal. if it isn't, I'd like to see what people have to say about the myriad of problems and the expectd slump in GDP afterwards (if it isn't to fall, then 'how'? and please disprove the findings of the BoE and ONS while you're at it)

I note the gathering animosity regarding my comments here. I get that. You're angry. You're angry I don't 'get behind' whatever the zeitgeist is. But I can't follow what I don't understand, and I don't understand Brexiters, given there is so little evidence it is a good thing for my country.

levers
 

Levers_Aligned

War Hero
Moderator
#62
As I recall, the UK joined the EEC for the business of trade, not politics.
I didn't even get to vote, as a lot of salty tars, as I was off in the oggin somewhere.
But the Common Market (which is what we actually joined) morphed into the EEC, which morphed into the EU, much out of necessity to facilitate trade. With that, you can't unify that magnitude of trade without political parity, accord and unity and the only way you can do that is by centralisation. Note: the 'politics' we do (or soon won't) engage with is debateable in the Commission, by our own MEPs, elected, by you. And any outcome is subject to our own parliamentary scrutiny and veto.

levers
 
#63
The remainder it must be assumed didn't care one way or the other so must be ruled out of the equation.
... or it could be assumed that they were happy with the status quo and maybe the referendum was a storm in a tea cup.
Who knows?

Of course, as we all know, assumption is the mother of all ferk-ups...
 
#64
@Levers_Aligned Not angry with you at all. You have an opinion and you are free to express it as far as I'm concerned. However, I am very angry, nay mightily pee'd off at the way our elected representatives have dealt with the whole event. Things could have been better,much better, if someone with a bit of business nous had been put in charge of negotiation rather than career politicians.
 

guns1969

Lantern Swinger
#65
For the record, I'm in favour of us exiting the European Union, in accordance with the outcome of the referendum and the direction of motion of the current government. I don't want to exit the European Union, because there is no reason to do so to change our situation for the better, and no one has shown me any proof so far to the contrary, despite me asking people to. When asked, people strangely go a bit quiet, or revert to insults, or start pressing the 'unlike' button, as if that explains anything.

I am however unsurprised at the abject paralysis which currently exists, and unsurprised that Brexiters fail to own this as a result of their actions. If, by pure dint of voting 'leave' we should simply go out of the European Union with our economic, political and constitutional situation more favourable, if we'd simply establish more favourable trade deals immediately and if it made this country a more prosperous place to live in, then I'd like to hear people's thoughts on how before they voted, versus how they'd do it now. Simply 'leaving' is idiotic and suicidal. if it isn't, I'd like to see what people have to say about the myriad of problems and the expectd slump in GDP afterwards (if it isn't to fall, then 'how'? and please disprove the findings of the BoE and ONS while you're at it)

I note the gathering animosity regarding my comments here. I get that. You're angry. You're angry I don't 'get behind' whatever the zeitgeist is. But I can't follow what I don't understand, and I don't understand Brexiters, given there is so little evidence it is a good thing for my country.

levers
I am not angry, I'm just starting to get really pi55ed off that there is no-one with a set of balls that is/are brave enough to get an act together and treat the Brussel-crats in the manner they are (appearing) to treat us.
I have lived for a while in the Czech Republic and have travelled a lot in Hungary and most of the former Eastern
Bloc countries, and, believe me, there are plenty of problems there mainly caused , according to the locals,by the crap that comes from Brussels, and there are lots of people in different countries who would like to see the EU crumble.
 
#66
... or it could be assumed that they were happy with the status quo and maybe the referendum was a storm in a tea cup.
Who knows?

Of course, as we all know, assumption is the mother of all ferk-ups...
Exactly that's why no side can claim them to be on their side of the vote. If they were happy with the status quo they'd have voted to remain I would have thought but what do I know?
 

Levers_Aligned

War Hero
Moderator
#67
I am not angry, I'm just starting to get really pi55ed off that there is no-one with a set of balls that is/are brave enough to get an act together and treat the Brussel-crats in the manner they are (appearing) to treat us.
I have lived for a while in the Czech Republic and have travelled a lot in Hungary and most of the former Eastern
Bloc countries, and, believe me, there are plenty of problems there mainly caused , according to the locals,by the crap that comes from Brussels, and there are lots of people in different countries who would like to see the EU crumble.
But former Soviet Bloc countries jumped at the chance to come into the EU fold. To me it was an absolutely sound move, because it offered them access to the four freedoms and steered them away from the mendacity of the likes of Putin and the resurgence of the Russian Federation. The options for previously asset stripped, uneducated, under-resourced and economically backward former Soviet vassels are pretty narrow. My guess is that you were speaking to more-or-less Brexit-flavoured blowhards who don't quite understand what membership of a huge trading and economic bloc actually means in real terms. They have the chance to leave - they too can exercise Article 50 and **** off into oblivion, with a damned sight more ease than us.

levers
 

Levers_Aligned

War Hero
Moderator
#68
@Levers_Aligned Not angry with you at all. You have an opinion and you are free to express it as far as I'm concerned. However, I am very angry, nay mightily pee'd off at the way our elected representatives have dealt with the whole event. Things could have been better,much better, if someone with a bit of business nous had been put in charge of negotiation rather than career politicians.
They've dealt with it because although the referendum is pretty binary, the mechanism of executing it is hugely contentious and complex. So complex in fact, that it could split communities and families, cause political palsy and make this country less than what is was, which at that time was pretty shit anyway given six years of austerity

Which is kinda what I thought, stood in a ballot box about thirty odd months ago.

levers
 
#69
Exactly that's why no side can claim them to be on their side of the vote. If they were happy with the status quo they'd have voted to remain I would have thought but what do I know?
I get what you're saying but I may not have made my point clear.

In my experience, getting someone to actually get off their arses and DO something is much harder if they're comfortable with the situation they're already in.
Unless they see an overwhelming reason to shift, they won't budge.

I have a feeling, (and that's all it is, an opinion), that an awful lot of people thought a 'leave' vote was such a remote possibility that they assumed, (there's that word again), that it wasn't worth voting.

I dunno, I'm still trying to get my head round it all.
 

guns1969

Lantern Swinger
#70
But former Soviet Bloc countries jumped at the chance to come into the EU fold. To me it was an absolutely sound move, because it offered them access to the four freedoms and steered them away from the mendacity of the likes of Putin and the resurgence of the Russian Federation. The options for previously asset stripped, uneducated, under-resourced and economically backward former Soviet vassels are pretty narrow. My guess is that you were speaking to more-or-less Brexit-flavoured blowhards who don't quite understand what membership of a huge trading and economic bloc actually means in real terms. They have the chance to leave - they too can exercise Article 50 and **** off into oblivion, with a damned sight more ease than us.

levers
I agree that they can exercise Article 50, but they most likely have the same problem as us, nobody with the balls to do it.
 

Levers_Aligned

War Hero
Moderator
#71
I agree that they can exercise Article 50, but they most likely have the same problem as us, nobody with the balls to do it.
I think it's more the fact that they'll be dumped out of the EU with those on the inside making it as difficult as possible, whilst watching intently at the non-trade deals they'll make with distant, unpredictable economies.

Better to bein and moaning about it than out and regretting it, say they.

levers
 

Levers_Aligned

War Hero
Moderator
#72
I get what you're saying but I may not have made my point clear.

In my experience, getting someone to actually get off their arses and DO something is much harder if they're comfortable with the situation they're already in.
Unless they see an overwhelming reason to shift, they won't budge.

I have a feeling, (and that's all it is, an opinion), that an awful lot of people thought a 'leave' vote was such a remote possibility that they assumed, (there's that word again), that it wasn't worth voting.

I dunno, I'm still trying to get my head round it all.
And indeed, the remain campaign was an insipid, liberal wet-fart of an utterance, which reeked of complacency and hubris. They knew this was intricate to the point of impossible, and failed to counter the 'project fear' accusations to the point it was sneered at arrogantly. In short, it was 'London/academic/metro' in undiluted form. No one reached out to the provinces, no one explained the consequences, no one sought the ear of the disenfranchised. No wonder a fat berk like Boris seemed such a totemic force, when on the other side you have a pig-f cker, a slimy, privileged money man like Osbourne and a turd like Farron, and Corbyn pretending that suddenly he <heart> the EU when him and his shower of Marxists have spent their careers voting against it.

Remainers have themselves as much to blame as the Brexiters for this situation, but Brexiters should damned well own the moment. This is THEIR gig and I await some pretty f cking clever realpolitik from those political champions who said this would be easy and the UK would be a better place out of the EU than it was in it.

Sixty seven days. Plenty of time, eh?

levers
 
#73
You don't sound like it. You sound like you are in the lied-to middle and want a resolution to a disastrous decision you've made, because the painful reality is slowly kicking in.
L-A:
I'm not going to have a row with you. I read, and always admire what you contribute to the nautical parts of RR, and have no wish to come on here in the same way that Stacker1 inhabits "next door"!

However, please, please, please don't become an Anna Soubry and tell me that I am too stupid to know for what I voted. I would not accuse you of such a thing. I voted to leave the appalling hypocrisy of the EU behind. An organisation that can't produce audited accounts yet pays he salaries and pensions to politicians that failed in their home countries. An organisation that shuttles itself between distant cities, just to satisfy national intransigence. If that was a company decision directors would be fired.

If I failed to produce accounts I'd be jailed.

Remainers need to see the bigger picture, not just harp on about trade. If the EU allowed us to start negotiating our trade deals prior to leaving then the EU would be, very largely, on the back foot.

As the Common Market moved through the various stages to the EU I, and countless others over the continent, were not asked our opinion. Where was the referendum on Maastricht? On Lisbon? On the countless other moves towards Brussels. None, nil, zilch. If I had been asked then, perhaps I'd not be so ferocious now.

The only painful reality to me is that the MP's are not standing by the referendum result. I am crossing my fingers for no deal. 66 days to go, and counting.
 

Levers_Aligned

War Hero
Moderator
#74
L-A:
I'm not going to have a row with you. I read, and always admire what you contribute to the nautical parts of RR, and have no wish to come on here in the same way that Stacker1 inhabits "next door"!
Well, we can 'debate', can't we?

However, please, please, please don't become an Anna Soubry and tell me that I am too stupid to know for what I voted. I would not accuse you of such a thing. I voted to leave the appalling hypocrisy of the EU behind. An organisation that can't produce audited accounts yet pays he salaries and pensions to politicians that failed in their home countries. An organisation that shuttles itself between distant cities, just to satisfy national intransigence. If that was a company decision directors would be fired.

If I failed to produce accounts I'd be jailed.
Okay. The cost to the UK taxpayer for membership of the EU is approximately £13Bn per year. I'll leave it to you to show us all the figures from that £13Bn which are directly attributable to 'paying salaries and pensions that failed in their home countries (sic)' When I ask people to show this stuff, they are either reluctant to (because they don't know, so it's an empty accusation) or they've read it from produced literature they've failed to fact check. Similarly, the cost of 'shuttling between distant cities, just to satisfy national intransigence'. What do you mean by this, and furthermore, do you have some evidence (and I mean REAL evidence? To cap that off, how much does it cost you - personally - out of your pocket in pounds and pence?

Remainers need to see the bigger picture, not just harp on about trade. If the EU allowed us to start negotiating our trade deals prior to leaving then the EU would be, very largely, on the back foot.
Well, lets just look at trade for a moment. For our membership, the value in exports is £270-odd billion with £340-odd billion coming the other way. Before anyone starts screaming 'trade deficit' let's put that into perspective that we have 70m population versus 450m in the rest of the EU. So you'd imagine us, now more a services industry nation and not manufacturing, to be hiring out cheaper manufacturing nations to build stuff while we offer the services to create. In economic circles, it is a massive comparative advantage for us as the fifth largest economy on the planet. So, I ask you. What bigger picture do you want me to have? Blue passports? Take back control? £350m per week for the NHS?

As the Common Market moved through the various stages to the EU I, and countless others over the continent, were not asked our opinion. Where was the referendum on Maastricht? On Lisbon? On the countless other moves towards Brussels. None, nil, zilch. If I had been asked then, perhaps I'd not be so ferocious now.
So, to get to the bottom of your ire, you can't exactly tell us why you're in the Brexit camp, save for 'nobody asked me'. What did the Maastricht Treaty cost you, personally? Lisbon? What else as the UK being part of the EU has cost you in money or personally in inconvenience in the past twenty years? Has it actually affect you, really? Or is it that you have this thin tendril of resentment coiling round your soul that you imagine a raft of foreign beaurocrats sitting in some expenses paid boardroom laughing loudly as they make decisions you'd probably not understand anyway to f ck up your life, just for sh ts and giggles? Again, it shows real misunderstanding of how it actually works. This is the real reason you are 'ferocious', isn't it? It's because you don't understand how the EU really functions and what it's benefits are above it's challenges. Don't worry. You're not alone. There's 17m others out there with the same mindset. None of them can show people like me how much better we will be with any deal once we have left. And yet they get all cross when people like me challenge them and criticise, because the country is in sht order and we are heading for one hell of a crash, this after barely showing recovery from the fiscal meltdown and still owing £1.7 trillion in loans and debt.

Nobody asked you. Any idea why not?

levers

ps: can you tell us why 'no deal' will be a winner, please? Not just bland statements and 'I reckon, me, right'. Show us what the figures will be in the first twelve months on growth and GDP and GNP. One of you lot must know, eh?
 
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#75
For my 6 penneth worth ... its got to be a "no deal" and "offski the big bid for freedom" ... no more cash paid into the EU coffers etc.

If they apply for an extension to leave ... the bean counters in Brussels are going to up the ante and make it more expensive for us to leave ... and of course there's no guarantee its still not to crash out in the end.

If we opt to remain in ... you can lay bets on how much that is going to cost us ... as Brussels etc aren't going to allow us to just pick up where we left off ... its going to higher contributions and more control etc.

However ... picking up on Leaver's earlier comment (I can't be assed to go find it) ... a lot of the EU directives (as in most) are now embodied in UK law (as in on the statute books not just us paying lip service to them) ... we can't just drop it overnight and go back to how it was ... its going to take the legal beavers decades to unpick it all so we will still be left with EU regulations.

As far as I can see the whole thing is a complete and utter clusterf*ck!
 
#76
Cluster Fcuk yes, driven by dickusheads in parliament,
More interested in self serving instead of facing the EU as a united front, as a democratic country.
Corbyn only after No10 God help us
DUP their way or no way
SNP after their own independence and hate conservatives
Yep cluster Fcuk sums it up.
Not sure liberals count anymore?
 
#77
I get what you're saying but I may not have made my point clear.

In my experience, getting someone to actually get off their arses and DO something is much harder if they're comfortable with the situation they're already in.
Unless they see an overwhelming reason to shift, they won't budge.

I have a feeling, (and that's all it is, an opinion), that an awful lot of people thought a 'leave' vote was such a remote possibility that they assumed, (there's that word again), that it wasn't worth voting.

I dunno, I'm still trying to get my head round it all.
The word Apathy probably sums up what you have said.
 

Levers_Aligned

War Hero
Moderator
#78
For my 6 penneth worth ... its got to be a "no deal" and "offski the big bid for freedom" ... no more cash paid into the EU coffers etc.
Why? Can you tell us what advantage 'no deal' will give us? Sure. We'll be £13bn better off. How much trade (either way) will 'no deal' destroy? (GYAC - It's mentioned in my post above)

And what does 'offski the big bid for freedom' mean?

If they apply for an extension to leave ... the bean counters in Brussels are going to up the ante and make it more expensive for us to leave ... and of course there's no guarantee its still not to crash out in the end.
How can 'the bean counters in Brussels', 'up the ante' and 'make it more expensive for us to leave'? The divorce payment has already been agreed. What do you know what is different from what actually exists? Who exactly are 'the bean counters'?

If we opt to remain in ... you can lay bets on how much that is going to cost us ... as Brussels etc aren't going to allow us to just pick up where we left off ... its going to higher contributions and more control etc.
If we cancel Article 50, we can legally retain our status at no cost whatsoever. All trade deals and arrangements back as they were. No interference from 'the bean counters' and our status continued as a member nation. Again, if you say you can lay bets on it, I'd like to see how much you'd stake on that.

If however we rejoin, because being out isn't favourable, you can expect all sorts of conditions attached, prime of it all will be the adoption of the Euro and much of our hard fought for status denuded. Which is kina why its not a good idea in the first place to vote to leave because you don't understand the EU or have some or other fear and loathing of foreigners.

However ... picking up on Leaver's earlier comment (I can't be assed to go find it) ... a lot of the EU directives (as in most) are now embodied in UK law (as in on the statute books not just us paying lip service to them) ... we can't just drop it overnight and go back to how it was ... its going to take the legal beavers decades to unpick it all so we will still be left with EU regulations.
Well, the Great Repeal Bill set UK Law and EU Laws as they exists (and as passed by parliament) as extant from 29 Mar 2019 so there isn't some sort of cliff edge or legislative black hole on exit. Of course, then the trawl through parliament and the House of Lords then begins with regard amendments and adjustments. Which is why it wasn't a good idea to f ck with it in the fist place, just because y'know, the bloody EU and foreigners.

As far as I can see the whole thing is a complete and utter clusterf*ck!
Well, you voted for this. I didn't. I'm waiting for Brexiters, gifted with such foresight of the UK reaching the sunny uplands to come up with something revolutionary in the next sixty six days that will really make the difference.

levers
 

Levers_Aligned

War Hero
Moderator
#79
The word Apathy probably sums up what you have said.
Apathy, complacency and hubris.

It's the apt description of the mindset of metrowankers across the country.

But now we are moving out, because 'Leave won', I'm still waiting for Brexiters to come up with summat novel and clever to stave off the dread that we are going over a f cking cliff

levers
 

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