Brexit re article 50 it must not be suspended/stopped under any circumstances Please sign the petition

Levers_Aligned

War Hero
Moderator
Levers you are only seeing the referendum result and vote from your Remain point of view.
Really? Let's have a look:

1. 37% is still more than 34% that voted to remain. Non-voters cannot be counted by either camp and their opinions are null and void if they cannot be arsed to get out and vote.
Please look at the content of the debate. One correspondent stated 'the nation voted'. I say, 'the nation didn't vote'. I'm not denying there was a voting majority, but only 37% of the eligible voters made that choice. That isn't 'the nation'.

2. Cameron extended the voter registration deadline as he was scared of the result and hoped for an upsurge in the remain vote. In other words he skewed the vote to the benefit of remain and it still was not enough.
Have you got proof of Cameron's fear, as you attest? It's a pretty pejorative statement to say 'he skewed the vote' when you have the likes of Aaron Banks funding all sorts of patently illegal activities on behalf of the Brexit campaign, and you have no proof of Cameron skewing anything.

3. Osbourne threatened that in the event of a leave vote, we would need an immediate emergency budget, swingeing cuts in services and tax rises, that the possibility of WW3 would be considerably closer, that many jobs would disappear instantly. Not once we left, but immediately.
And Osbourne is thankfully no longer in office, in fact in politics. If you are using that ****** as leverage, you are scraping the lower region of the barrel.

4. A great deal of the forecasts by the BoE were skewed in favour of remain and as usual, many were wrong.
Got any evidence of that? Focussing on the forecasts on GDP and it's decline after Brexit, do you have any evidence their figures are wrong based upon calculations you have done? What about the Office of National Statistics?

5. Cameron stated in his propoganda leaflet that Leave means Leave and whatever the outcome the government would implement it.
And his successor is making that happen. The reason it isn't happening are manifold, mainly to do with trivial stuff such as the backstop and it's jeopardization of the Good Friday Agreement, so-far-non-existent trade agreements and customs arrangements. And while we are on the subject of propaganda, can you (as in you, personally) please explain the '£350m per week for the NHS' red bus?

If the remain camp had actually got behind leaving from the outset and actually looked forways to make the best of it rather than putting up objections and blockers at every stage, we may actuallly be in a far better place today.
Hang on. The Minister for Leaving the European Union was David Davis, a Brexiter. He did Jesus-Jack-****-all (actually spent a laughable amount of time debating with his EU counterparts in his nearly 18 months in the job) and his successor was also a Brexiter. Both came away with nothing, so it's not beyond the realms of understanding how leadership works to see why Teresa May intervened to steer the process toward a successful, and damage-limiting arrangement. Simply blaming the mess on Remainers is like setting your own house on fire and blaming the fire brigade for the collateral water damage.

To lobby for the govt to give out its negotiating position and red lines in advance of the negotiations was crass stupitdity that would only lead to the EU being able to use them to give us the absolute minimum when we should have gone in from a position of relative strength. Who gives the other side your position before negotiating? No one!
So, you go to a meeting without an agenda? Your idea of negotiating is to not clearly state what you want before the meeting? The EU have been very clear, upfront and consistent with their direction of travel, and have broadcast it to us from the early days. I can't imagine us getting anything from them if we constantly hide our requirements - how do they know what we want? You do understand what Junker said about May last October, don't you? Does the word 'nebulous' ring any bells?

levers
 

Levers_Aligned

War Hero
Moderator
  • I do not want to see the UK become part of the United States of Europe, ruled by Germany assisted by the French.
I cannot find anywhere where there was any motion by this country or it's government to create or be part of a 'United States of Europe'. Are you sure this isn't just a figment of your imagination? I mean, I know you like to attribute 'project fear' to the remain part of the argument, but, y'know. Where's the evidence, please? And I mean 'evidence', not opinion copy from the Spectator by some blowhard right-wing polemicist, or summat Farage has said over a pint to a reporter.

In the main the EU is ruled by unelected officials, they set the rules not elected politicians.
No it's not. You vote in your MEP, they represent you in the Commission and to the council, which is elected by the people you vote for. And for the record, only monarchs 'rule', and only then by permission in constitutional democracies, like ours.

The whole EU set up is in my opinion corrupt with a whole train of hangers on all drawing enormous salaries whilst waiting for their pensions to kick in. (Kinnocks anyone?)
So they do nothing. Absolutely nothing. They get voted in as MEPs, piss off to Strasbourg and wait for the cash to pour in at full bore pressure? Again, I'm gonna ask you for evidence on this. Have you got this in writing from your own MEP?

I believe that the law of the land should be made and enforced in the UK not by foreign bodies.
And it is. We have a constitutional monarchy, our own parliament, judiciary, economy, armed forces, taxation, health service, education policy, police and emergency services, taxation, welfare state and sovereignty sits with the sitting government. Whatever EU law we have to submit to has firstly been passed through our own statute process, so, in essence, our government has agreed to it. There are plenty of EU generated instruments we have opted out of. Here. Try this:

Justice and Home Affairs
The UK can choose whether or not to participate in new EU measures in the Justice and Home Affairs field. This means that the UK does not automatically take part in measures but can opt in to those that it considers to be in the national interest. (Protocol 21)

The UK should be able to decide who enters and stays in the Country, so that if we need a thousand workers for the NHS, for example, we can permit that number to come in for the duration of their contract.
And we do, and did even before the referendum. Immigration policy was significantly tightened post 2010. We did highlight key skills shortages and make concessions to fill those areas. We continued to do so and will do until we finally leave the EU, when afterwards it is still to be fully decided who stays and who we recruit who is earning over £30k. Good luck with finding a glut of skilled and semi-skilled health workers when we 'send em all back'. Because y'know, the good old British public (particularly youngsters) are jumping at the chance to do menial care work and hospital auxiliary staffing.

There are more reasons but that will do for a start.
No … keep going. SO far I have booted most of them over the posts for you. I'm trying to boil down your logic so you finally admit (like most Brexiters) that your reasoning to vote to plunge this nation of ours into political, economic and constitutional chaos is simple xenophobia.

I believe that a lot of the chaos has been caused by the Remain click of politicians, including May, deliberately putting all of their cards on the table to enable the EU an easier task of blocking our exit. That exit will be a disaster for the EU and may in the not too distant future lead to the whole thing collapsing.
Well, as I have said elsewhere, to get the best out of a negotiation, sooner or later you have to declare exactly what it is you want. The EU did, fairly early on, and have consistently stuck by their position. Can you give me details of how the UK keeping our position hidden would have helped? Do you think the EU would be able to negotiate with someone who didn't declare what it was they wanted?

At the start of the whole thing we signed up to join a trading group, not to further the German aims of a 4th Reich.
Wow! An early entry of Godwin's Law. Well done!

Godwin's Law

levers
 
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Stirlin

War Hero
I'm feeling very left out :(

Everyone else seems to be so sure they know the answers.

Am I the only one to admit that they they don't know?
The only one who guessed right was Cameron , he pissed off as he knew the whole thing would become a clusterfcuk , he had spent a year talking to the immovable EU. What he did not expect was that the country would vote out so banged his chit in. I voted remain but I will stand by the majority who voted leave.
BoE and ONS may be independant but no one can predict WTF will happen after BREXIT.
 

fishhead

War Hero
The Backstop, apparently designed to stop the UK unilaterally imposing a hard border between Norn Iron and the Republic. At no stage has the UK government said they have any intention of having a hard border(been there,done that,destroyed the border posts) The Irish government on their part have made a similar undertaking. So not a problem you'd be excused for thinking but don't rule out the dead hand of the EU using it as a bargaining chip.
Is it an over simplification on my part to think that in reality the Irish border is the very least of the problems and could be happily ignored?
 

Levers_Aligned

War Hero
Moderator
The Backstop, apparently designed to stop the UK unilaterally imposing a hard border between Norn Iron and the Republic. At no stage has the UK government said they have any intention of having a hard border(been there,done that,destroyed the border posts) The Irish government on their part have made a similar undertaking. So not a problem you'd be excused for thinking but don't rule out the dead hand of the EU using it as a bargaining chip.
Is it an over simplification on my part to think that in reality the Irish border is the very least of the problems and could be happily ignored?
Not really. If (for whatever reason) both the EU and the UK ignored the obvious ramification of exiting the EU and the thorny issue of a border between two independent economic blocs suddenly became an issue then people like Sinn Fein might just ignore the Good Friday Agreement and begin agitating again. I mean, they weren't agitating before the referendum, in fact seemed quite happy with the arrangements, and had effectively shut down the paramilitary wing. But, y'know … if it's worth shaking the dice to 'take back control', there's no other way to do it than sending us back to the 1970s and paddy bombing our pubs and shooting our soldiers on the province's streets again to show what Brexiters actually won.

When you think about it, if you have no border between two independent economic blocs who are competing against each other for trade and setting tariffs on each other's exports and imports, there's no better way to **** things up and encourage smuggling of goods and people than pretending the border exists. At least with our opting out of Schengen we could hold the EU responsible for anyone breaching the border areas and police it effectively. Post Brexit, it will be ******* impossible. And so the only option is to restrict it, tighten it, and then shut it down completely with border posts. Hence, 'backstop'.

levers
 

Levers_Aligned

War Hero
Moderator
he had spent a year talking to the immovable EU.
Well, actually, he was prodded into calling a meeting with the EU Council given promises he made pre-2015 election to his own shower of xenophobic turds and political never-would-bes along the back benches, with whom he'd cut some sort of deal to remain as leader. Taking to this meeting he had a handful of unachievable demands which were hastily convened and coupled with the threat of 'hey, if you lot don't agree to this, we might have to have a referendum in the UK, y'knaa'. Now if I were one of the EU negotiators on the Council I'd be saying 'fill your boots, popeye', knowing that any such referendum would politically and constitutionally **** the country forever, and cost Cameron his job. What, you mean even the EU Council itself couldn't read the mood of the rather nationalistic UK when it comes to existence as part of the EU? Quelle surprise. The EU have done nothing - hands completely off - and simply watched as we've slowly imploded. All they've said is 'don't expect to pull yourself out of this membership with anything more than is agreed previously and without paying us what you have already agreed you owe us'. And they've stuck to that whilst our political system has corroded to rust and our society teeters on civil unrest.

Yeah. Brexit won. What don't we understand about that, eh?

levers
 

Branch-Hopper

War Hero
Tony Abbott served as Prime Minister of Australia from 2013 to 2015
Is he available?

@Levers_Aligned
You are correct, we are in a mess. But, let's look at the history:
1. Cameron tried to tell Junker that things were not good.
2. Junker sent him away empty handed
3. Parliament, gave HM's Subjects the decision
4. We decided to leave
5, Parliament approved our decision
6. Gina (backed by whom?) took the power away from No 10
7. Remainer MP's now regret items 3, 4 & 5
8. Mess is OF THEIR OWN MAKING because of item 7

No deal cannot be removed from the table because:
a) It removes all room for manoeuvre for the PM/HoC
b) Even if all 650 MP's agree on a new deal, there is no guarantee that the EU 27 will accept it
c) Therefore item a is yet another Remain tactic to ignore item 4 above.

I fail to see why the media cannot see all this.
Democracy is on the verge of dying in the UK.

I am the squeezed middle, and I am fed up.
 

SaladDodger

Lantern Swinger
Don't worry about the EU, it will implode in our lifetimes

Sweden wisely turned down the Euro before Christmas, the Danes never did accept the Euro, the Italians are exploring going back to the Lira, apparently 2/3rd's of Belgians want an in/out referendum, it may still kick off in Spain with the Catalans and if it does Macron has said he'll close his border with Spain, in any case Macron is re-introducing National Service in France and that's before we delve into the bailouts for Portugal, Spain, Ireland and Greece, the Germans seem a tad unhappy with Merkel's failed open door policy, she's only in power by her fingertips and going by German media they'll be glad to see the back of her.

If you asked me to join that club and told me how much it costs I'd question your sanity

Is my view a bit too simplistic ? Maybe, but I'm quite confident the sun will rise on March 30th and we'll keep on trading with the world. I'll use Maersk as an example, if Maersk said they'll boycott UK ports after Brexit because no one will ship goods in or out of the UK I'd be worried but that simply isn't the case. We have the 5th biggest economy in the world and business's around the world will still want a slice of it so if it's a no deal Brexit & WTO terms until or unless we agree free trade deals with other countries then no deal it is. Just get on with it.
 

Taztiff

War Hero
We have the 5th biggest economy in the world and business's around the world will still want a slice of it
I work for a British multinational company trading on both the London Stock Market and the NYSE.
Our biggest concern at the moment about Brexit?
We have the wrong address on our product to sell into the EU if its a 'hard Brexit'. So we are busily changing artwork and stuff to put the address of one of our European sites as the EC Rep for our product. A lot of money being spent 'just in case' - but we will still sell our product around the world and the company does not seem to worry about it.
 

Levers_Aligned

War Hero
Moderator
You are correct, we are in a mess. But, let's look at the history:
1. Cameron tried to tell Junker that things were not good.
Nope. Cameron went to the Council with a rather far fetched and unattainable set of sprung-upon wants and needs, backed with a 'we'll have a referendum, if you don't say yes, you know' statement. If I were in the council and knew the febrile nature of the British electorate when it comes to key situations, and I'm faced with an insincere, oily-faced bell end with no real mandate I'd have said "Fill your boots", bought some popcorn and deckchair and sat and watched the show.

2. Junker sent him away empty handed
Yep. Because as any fule no, you influence change gradually from within, not rolling in and stamping your feet

3. Parliament, gave HM's Subjects the decision
Nope. Parliament voted for the referendum. The decision is still with David Cameron at this stage, as all referendum are 'advisory'. He could have legally said, '**** that' and ignored it. Not a wise move, I'll give you, but the decision is still his as PM.

4. We decided to leave
Well, you might have. But you don't speak on behalf of the 16 million who didn't vote leave nor the countless millions who didn't vote either. So this 'we' business is a bit wrong. I take it as 'you' voted leave, you'll take responsibility for the mess the situation is now, yeah? Think about it Had the vote gone the other way, we wouldn't be in this mess. But we are. Because 'you' decided to leave. So own it, huh?

5, Parliament approved our decision
Nope again (doing well here, aren't we? That is 'we', as in 'you') Cameron resigned, May took over and her pledge (from government - as 'parliament' is a different entity) was to implement the outcome of the referendum, submit Article 20 and commence the process of leaving the European Union

6. Gina (backed by whom?) took the power away from No 10
Well, it comes a bit rich hearing Brexiters whining about Gina Miller challenging the government's move to invoke A50 without reference to rightful and democratic parliamentary debate and then hearing them dripping like septic ********* about the likes of Bercow and other remainers 'interfering' in the lower house and the daily main who carped the High Court judges as 'enemies of the nation'. Miller's challenge didn't take anything away from No10. 'No 10' is where the PM lives, such decisions are made executively by debate in both houses. All she did was make sure the democratic process was followed correctly.

7. Remainer MP's now regret items 3, 4 & 5
I think the only thing they regret is not campaigning hard enough and treating the British Electorate with the low level complacency and contempt they did. But then again, Trump ended up in the White House on the back of lies and xenophobia, so there's no accounting for the nature of people, is there?

8. Mess is OF THEIR OWN MAKING because of item 7
Well, true to form so far … you're wrong on that. Had Brexiters not swallowed the whoppers told by their pro-leave tub-thumpers ("making trade deals is the easiest thing to do" and "£350m per week for the NHS" - care to explain where we are with these?) and understood that voting to exit the EU will not affect the inflow of immigrants one iota, we already have control of our judiciary and law and have our own currency, taxation and economic strategy and system, then maybe they wouldn't have crassly voted to jump ship with ABSOLUTELY no understanding of how to either do it nor survive effectively afterwards. It's heartening that I have asked - several times - for Brexiters on here to come up with evidence and figures to refute my challenges to their empty assertions, yet everyone has just slunk off. They know, I know, that they know they must own this shit and not get too mardy ars -ed when people like me challenge their motives as to why the f - ck they did what they did. It wouldn't be so bad if everything was going okay and Brexiters were saying 'See? I told you so!" But they are not, and the situation is worsening … and now Brexiters like you are saying 'it's the remainers fault'. As I have said elsewhere, if you set fire to your own f - cking house, don't blame the fire brigade for the water damage putting it out, or even those who said 'don't play with matches'.

No deal cannot be removed from the table because:
Yes it can

a) It removes all room for manoeuvre for the PM/HoC
Please explain why.

b) Even if all 650 MP's agree on a new deal, there is no guarantee that the EU 27 will accept it
Or any deal, for that matter. Now do you see why people like me (once I'd zoned out all the bull shyte and lies form each side) came to the conclusion that leaving would be ruinously difficult and of no benefit to the UK?

c) Therefore item a is yet another Remain tactic to ignore item 4 above.
So, people who disagree with the original motion are to blame for the effects of the original motion? That's how democracy works, isn't it?

I fail to see why the media cannot see all this.
I fail to see why Brexiters can't see the utter and complete disaster they have 'won', and then fail to own it.

Democracy is on the verge of dying in the UK.
And you moaned about Gina Miller invoking a democratic challenge to a non-democratic government action? Strangely enough, you're wrong again. If democracy was dead, Cameron wouldn't have held the referendum, May wouldn't be aiming for Brexit and the government would do what the heck it wants.

I am the squeezed middle, and I am fed up.
You don't sound like it. You sound like you are in the lied-to middle and want a resolution to a disastrous decision you've made, because the painful reality is slowly kicking in.

levers
 

guns1969

Lantern Swinger
Nope. Cameron went to the Council with a rather far fetched and unattainable set of sprung-upon wants and needs, backed with a 'we'll have a referendum, if you don't say yes, you know' statement. If I were in the council and knew the febrile nature of the British electorate when it comes to key situations, and I'm faced with an insincere, oily-faced bell end with no real mandate I'd have said "Fill your boots", bought some popcorn and deckchair and sat and watched the show.



Yep. Because as any fule no, you influence change gradually from within, not rolling in and stamping your feet



Nope. Parliament voted for the referendum. The decision is still with David Cameron at this stage, as all referendum are 'advisory'. He could have legally said, '**** that' and ignored it. Not a wise move, I'll give you, but the decision is still his as PM.



Well, you might have. But you don't speak on behalf of the 16 million who didn't vote leave nor the countless millions who didn't vote either. So this 'we' business is a bit wrong. I take it as 'you' voted leave, you'll take responsibility for the mess the situation is now, yeah? Think about it Had the vote gone the other way, we wouldn't be in this mess. But we are. Because 'you' decided to leave. So own it, huh?



Nope again (doing well here, aren't we? That is 'we', as in 'you') Cameron resigned, May took over and her pledge (from government - as 'parliament' is a different entity) was to implement the outcome of the referendum, submit Article 20 and commence the process of leaving the European Union



Well, it comes a bit rich hearing Brexiters whining about Gina Miller challenging the government's move to invoke A50 without reference to rightful and democratic parliamentary debate and then hearing them dripping like septic ********* about the likes of Bercow and other remainers 'interfering' in the lower house and the daily main who carped the High Court judges as 'enemies of the nation'. Miller's challenge didn't take anything away from No10. 'No 10' is where the PM lives, such decisions are made executively by debate in both houses. All she did was make sure the democratic process was followed correctly.



I think the only thing they regret is not campaigning hard enough and treating the British Electorate with the low level complacency and contempt they did. But then again, Trump ended up in the White House on the back of lies and xenophobia, so there's no accounting for the nature of people, is there?



Well, true to form so far … you're wrong on that. Had Brexiters not swallowed the whoppers told by their pro-leave tub-thumpers ("making trade deals is the easiest thing to do" and "£350m per week for the NHS" - care to explain where we are with these?) and understood that voting to exit the EU will not affect the inflow of immigrants one iota, we already have control of our judiciary and law and have our own currency, taxation and economic strategy and system, then maybe they wouldn't have crassly voted to jump ship with ABSOLUTELY no understanding of how to either do it nor survive effectively afterwards. It's heartening that I have asked - several times - for Brexiters on here to come up with evidence and figures to refute my challenges to their empty assertions, yet everyone has just slunk off. They know, I know, that they know they must own this shit and not get too mardy ars -ed when people like me challenge their motives as to why the f - ck they did what they did. It wouldn't be so bad if everything was going okay and Brexiters were saying 'See? I told you so!" But they are not, and the situation is worsening … and now Brexiters like you are saying 'it's the remainers fault'. As I have said elsewhere, if you set fire to your own f - cking house, don't blame the fire brigade for the water damage putting it out, or even those who said 'don't play with matches'.



Yes it can



Please explain why.



Or any deal, for that matter. Now do you see why people like me (once I'd zoned out all the bull shyte and lies form each side) came to the conclusion that leaving would be ruinously difficult and of no benefit to the UK?



So, people who disagree with the original motion are to blame for the effects of the original motion? That's how democracy works, isn't it?



I fail to see why Brexiters can't see the utter and complete disaster they have 'won', and then fail to own it.



And you moaned about Gina Miller invoking a democratic challenge to a non-democratic government action? Strangely enough, you're wrong again. If democracy was dead, Cameron wouldn't have held the referendum, May wouldn't be aiming for Brexit and the government would do what the heck it wants.



You don't sound like it. You sound like you are in the lied-to middle and want a resolution to a disastrous decision you've made, because the painful reality is slowly kicking in.

levers
I think you will find that the UK had a vote to join the EEC, NOT the ******* EU !!!!!!!!!!
 

fishhead

War Hero
@Levers_Aligned is very big on democracy or the lack of it as he sees it but it is more than clear that the democratic system has been adhered to thus far but is at serious risk of being abused by those that refuse to accept a democratic vote. It is true only just only 17 million registered electors voted for Brexit but even fewer voted to remain. The remainder it must be assumed didn't care one way or the other so must be ruled out of the equation.
since the referendum we have had a General election where both the main parties said they would carry out the wishes of the electorate and take us out of the EU so I would argue that the voters have had two chances to reject Brexit and took neither.
Politicians being politicians are quick at forgetting their manifesto policies as soon as their knees are under the table and the wishes of the electorate are distant memory compared with their own machinations.
 

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