Big Brother Britain: Government and councils to spy on ALL

Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by chieftiff, Sep 30, 2007.

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  1. chieftiff

    chieftiff War Hero Moderator

    Don't know how this got missed (maybe it didn't?) but saw it somewhere else so thought I would throw it up for debate:

    Big Brother Britain: Government and councils to spy on ALL our phones:

    Sunday Mail article

    "Officials from the top of Government to lowly council officers will be given unprecedented powers to access details of every phone call in Britain under laws coming into force tomorrow.

    The new rules compel phone companies to retain information, however private, about all landline and mobile calls, and make them available to some 795 public bodies and quangos.

    The move, enacted by the personal decree of Home Secretary Jacqui Smith, will give police and security services a right they have long demanded: to delve at will into the phone records of British citizens and businesses. "


    The article is a little alarmist (it is the Mail!) and there have been far more serious rumours about how our electronic communications are monitored (Project Echelon) But what do people think about a whole host of agencies being allowed to access information like: Who you phoned, where from, time, length of call etc.
     
  2. Re: Big Brother Britain: Government and councils to spy on A

    I have no problem with this. I only have a land line for the internet and I very rarely use a mobile.

    My plotting of the downfall of the government is all done face to face :plotting:
     
  3. Although my mobile phone has been useful over the years, it does get to be a pain in the arse when other people expect you to be available at any time to suit them. It grips me when you get companies ring your mobile out of the blue trying to flog you shit you don't want whilst your trying to get important things done, yet you still need your phone on for other reasons. I rarely make many calls or get much use out of my mobile so I think that once I leave the mob I'll end up getting rid of it.
     
  4. Re: Big Brother Britain: Government and councils to spy on A

    This is surely the next logical step from allowing the police complete access to see which websites everyone has visited. If that is OK then why is extending it to prevent crime any different?
     
  5. chieftiff

    chieftiff War Hero Moderator

    Re: Big Brother Britain: Government and councils to spy on A

    I don't have a problem with the police or indeed the intelligence services looking into my personal records, I actually still trust these organisations and don't believe that information would be accessed unnecessarily or abused. I do however have a bit of an issue when somewhere in the region of a million people will potentially have access to that information for what I see as no good reason!
     
  6. Re: Big Brother Britain: Government and councils to spy on A

    A phone call made over a public line has never been private.
    Private calls can only be made if you own the method of transmission.
    Given that daily thousands if not millions of people divulge highly personal information about themselves over their mobiles, to anyone within earshot of their usually raised voices. Then they should care less that some bods from the government may at sometime choose to listen in.
    On a wider point the population of the UK has welcomed, even bayed for the surveillance society it now has. Without that popular support it could not have been done.
    The trap was set and the willing victims marched in.
    Hereabouts people are amazed the people in the UK have let things get to such a pretty pass. A people many of them thought to be independent and strong of spirit.
     
  7. Given that it was the Mail does it mention how it's going to affect the price of my house?
     
  8. Oh! I thought they did already - after all it is a police state is it not (soft police state addmitingly but still a police state)
     
  9. Re: Big Brother Britain: Government and councils to spy on A

    All very true.

    I think the main reason for this is national security. The government has always had programs such as word recognition in place for reasons we all know about. This ment that every time you said a word that has been flagged then it was logged along with the details of the call. Maybe even recorded???

    I don't see why anyone should have a problem with this. If you are not doing anything wrong then why worry about what national security people think? If you are worried about some insurance twat calling you then there other ways to prevent them calling you. (Telephone Preference Service) you know the company that warns spam companys from calling you. As for mobiles you can contact your service provider and report it to them. I mean does it give a list of the bods that will have access to the info?

    I totaly welcome the idea. It has got to the stage where we have the I.T. to do something useful like stop all those bad people doing bad things. :thumright:
     
  10. chieftiff

    chieftiff War Hero Moderator

    Re: Big Brother Britain: Government and councils to spy on A

    Don't have a problem with any of that, however give me one good reason why Leicestershire County Council should also have access to that same information? Or how about HM Customs & Excise having full access to that information on a daily basis, no reasonable suspicion, no judge just log on and there it is. I can think of a whole host of ways that information could be abused but not a single one to support it. I can also think of a whole bunch of un-vetted people who now have access to information which could include my call usage, my circle of friends, who my bank is, my solicitor, my employer etc etc (if my employer were the council what abuses does that open up?)........................... why?

    Incidentally I think some people are getting confused, this law doesn't give anyone the right to record your actual conversation, contents of e-mails etc, that still requires a judge to authorise it (as far as I can see). It merely requires companies to record certain data and make it available on a national database(I'm now reflecting on the success of every other government backed national database project and nodding my head in that "what a waste of taxpayers money" manner). Of course if the rumours are true Echelon has been analysing our communications since the cold war anyway, but not exactly legally.

    I'm not some liberal human rights nut, I just don't see the need for all these agencies to have access to data for which they appear to have no legitimate use.
     
  11. Re: Big Brother Britain: Government and councils to spy on A

    I totally agree with you.
    As for national security, if you research back into the 1880's there were more bomb attacks on London than now, many more in fact, and on the underground network. There were no less than six separate attempts on Queen Victorias life. But, there seemed no need for the extraordinairy levels of security we see now.
    The structural integrity of this country is not under attack, nor are its frontiers, there is no threat of invasion. Why therefore do we need such measures, and against what?
    I cannot help thinking there is an alternative motive in all this, something more devious.
    Why on earth do I need to be 'seen' by at least a dozen cctv cameras walking to the train station? In an area with the lowest crime rate in country; which is something historic and nothing to do with the recent spate of cameras.
    At Gernica in the Basque territory, a town not exactly unaquainted with sudden violence, a recent attempt by the town council to put up just one cctv camera was soundly defeated, on the grounds of personal liberty.
    Why therefore in sleepy Sussex are such measures deemed necessary.
    I would really be glad of any answers.
     
  12. Re: Big Brother Britain: Government and councils to spy on A

    Ok then, what might this sort of info be used for.

    Benefit fraud costs britain around £3bn a year. How many people do you think talk on the phone boasting about it

    What about the drug dealer that lives in your street that you don't know about because the governing bodies have very limited ways of finding out about them.

    Ok, HM Customs & Excise might use the info to find illegal activities. You know the street venders that don't pay tax.

    There are many more, and all cost billions to the governmet every year. Not all info will be used just what they need to know. Do you think that agent joe from mi5 wants to sit and listen to aunty mary talk about how some one jumped in front of her at the bus line.

    What do you think this money could be spent on? maybe all the talk about the Navy shrinking would not be going around. Maybe our nhs would be alot better, maybe there would be better programs to keep young people off the street???
     
  13. Re: Big Brother Britain: Government and councils to spy on A

    May be just a telephone number dialling record. Not conversation or
    even text content .

    I think at the moment as mentioned they have records anyway its just accessing them from the telephone companies. I think its like the last case
    scenario when they got the bad guys and then tried to find all their pals!!

    However there are still pay as you go phones that aren't name registered and topping up giving user name isn't a pre requirement.

    The usual government overkill



    :nemo: :nemo:
     
  14. Re: Big Brother Britain: Government and councils to spy on A

    You speak of Gernica in the Basque territory, tell me, what is the crime rate in comparison to Sussex? People in local areas might see this as an infringement when they have almost no crime. Others might welcome it when the feel they can't walk the streets that they have grown up on. Criminals do not respect where they live any more. People see the government as a big piggy bank that is bottomless. For anyone to defend this is absurd.

    This could be a case of nervous big brother, but, we do have a new kind of war to fight. It may not take place on foreign land but right here at home. Next door for goodness sake. If people want to be secure in there homes and live there smooth little lives then let the government do what they deem necessary to ensure that.
     
  15. Re: Big Brother Britain: Government and councils to spy on A

    “Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.†-- William Pitt, House of Commons, 11/18/1783.

    Sound familiar?

    http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/12/nsa_and_bushs_i.html


    I like what this guy said...

    "The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either."
    Benjamin Franklin

    And this type of attitude really worries me:

    I have nothing to hide so go ahead search my personal things and tape my private conversations

    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=998565

    http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/07/privacy_and_the.html

    Remember like taxes, freedoms what little we have, once the Government gets it's way, it is harder to reclaim them, so once they are all gone, that's it...nada....x-nay...total control......you know "red tape"...

    Just a little story about what happens when personal information can get into the wrong hands and it's consequences...

    The guy who saved Gerald Fords life
     
  16. Re: Big Brother Britain: Government and councils to spy on A

    But thats the beauty of our judicial system. You may be ringing AQ to get a spot of fun organised, the security services will (may) be aware of this, but at your trial it won`t be admissable.
    Granted you`ll have 10,000 RR people saying hang em high,but because the info hasn`t been acquired `above board` you`ll get away scot free.
     
  17. Re: Big Brother Britain: Government and councils to spy on A

    Yes you are correct in a certain way, but remember, Look at what happened in Iraq and look at what happens in third world countries. Be thank full it does not happen hear or in America. This is because of programs such as these. I mean unless it adversely effects your life (which it does not). then why is there a problem? Are you camera shy? do you own a telecommunication company so you can make a private phone call? I think not. With telephones you are using a service that does not belong to you. The answer is clear, if you don't want your info to be listened to then don't use the phone. Use data protection and get a copy of footage and info on how your image has been used. If you find it to be abused then have it destroyed. Just stop moaning about it. And please if you can't think of anything to say for your self then don't quote other people.
     
  18. Re: Big Brother Britain: Government and councils to spy on A

    One of the problems I would have with it is when these agencies start selling this information (without our consent) to commercial outfits and then we start seeing an increase in junk calls and mail... :toilet:
     
  19. Re: Big Brother Britain: Government and councils to spy on A

    I do not know the crime rates in Gernica, but, can tell you that throughout Spain they would be somewhat higher than in the UK, as a general rule. Probably a lot higher. Even after half a lifetime of knowledge there are streets in Barcelona that I would not walk down. Drugs and petty crime are rife in any reasonably sized Spanish town, seaports are of course particularly vulnerable.
    The vast majority of ground floor properties throughout the country have barred windows for a very good reason.
    Sussex, at least the bit I know, has very low crime rates, virtually nil.
    Perhaps the fear of crime in the UK is worse than the reality, we have been lead to believe we are unsafe, when in fact for the most part we are not.
    It is this last that I believe has lead us into the surveillance trap.
     
  20. Re: Big Brother Britain: Government and councils to spy on A

    Take into account that Britain does not have to worry about Spanish crime rates (after all they do have there own gov for that). As for the part of Sussex you know, it is just as you say, you only know maybe a very small bit. All towns have the same traits they have areas where crime is never heard of, they have areas where crime is at a minimum, and they have the area where a crime free life is at a minimum.

    Sure we don't want to be listened to every call and sure we don't want to be watched every second of the day. Society is at a stage where, if we want to keep the level and quality of life we have all grown accustom to then these are the measures that we need in our modern life.

    Yes we maybe scared about what could happen to us, but who is to blame??? Police, Government, Criminals or even terrorists??? I know who is to blame 100% no questions asked...The media.

    We see far to much going on in the world, i mean who in Britain needs to know that a woman in America fought off to burglars and got a black eye for her troubles. People as a whole are scared. Maybe the government is playing on this or maybe they are having preventive measures put in place just to be sure...
     

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