Behaviour of HMS Cornwall Crew in Iran

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#41
Bush-Halliburton et al are profiting at the expense of the US People, they are setting themselves up for comfortable directorships once their time in this awful government has come to an end.

I strongly believed that we should have finished Saddam in the first Gulf War, there was a popular uprising in the South, and had we supported it, I believe Iraq would be in a stronger position, the Iraqi people whould have trusted us for a start, but it was the French who held us back then, no doubt wanting a country to sell arms to once the "problem" had settled down. Iraq has not been "pacified" as you term it, because we went in on the wrong attitude, furthermore, mistakes were made in the way the invasion was handled, namely the complete dismantling of the Law and Order system at the time.

America and Ourselves are not a shining beacon of morality, and Islamic countries are also far from it, however, these being democracies, we all have a right to voice our opinions be they leftist, centrist or leaning to the right. America treats its friends well? My how memories fade, the lack of support (diplomatically or otherwise) in the Suez escapade. Or the fact that the Senate wanted nothing to do with Hitler's march on Europe, thank god for FDR during the Second World War, because very few men would have gone beyond the Isolationist mindset of America at the time.

I ask you TheManInTheMiddle, but have you ever been in a situation where you have been faced with an enemy's weapons, threatening to try you as a spy, put you in an Iranian prison for Seven years? If you have and you kept to name, rank, and number then congratulations, but if you are no more than another Armchair Warrior, then shut up. Or would you rather have opened fire with your rifle on the eight Iranian speedboats which outgunned you, facing a certain death, and an almost certain subsequent war.
 
#42
Guys just a quick note.

Not aimed at anyone in particular, but just an advisory.

The journalists are out in force on this one, and I've had to remove multiple trawls on Arrse.

Please think of where your comments may end up before you post.

Thanks

PTP


Oh and ManInTheMiddle is a previously banned troll.
 
#43
PartTimePongo said:
Guys just a quick note.

Not aimed at anyone in particular, but just an advisory.

The journalists are out in force on this one, and I've had to remove multiple trawls on Arrse.

Please think of where your comments may end up before you post.

Thanks

PTP


Oh and ManInTheMiddle is a previously banned troll.

Good. Let us hope that any journalist who is trawling reads this. There are a lot of people on this site and on ARRSE who understand the circumstances of what occurred with the 15 crew of HMS Cornwall. Some of us have been through JSIU and resistance to interrogation training. Some of our members were captured by the Argentines in Port Stanley. Some of us, like Deeps, have carried out multiple tours of duty at the tip of the spear.

I linked to Commander Huber's column because his analysis of how the crew of Cornwall acted makes more sense than anything else that I have read and he refutes some of the more histrionic commentating that I have seen. The 15 were put in an impossible situation and the why's and wherefore's of that will come out in the BOI [although I anticipate a major butt-covering exercise by The Bliar].

Welcome home boys and girl. Hold your heads up because you did nothing wrong.

RM
 
#44
I agree Bergen they did do nothing wrong but sadly that is not the case now where 2 of them have sold their stories and created a hail of bad publicity and feeling.
 
#45
finknottle said:
I agree Bergen they did do nothing wrong but sadly that is not the case now where 2 of them have sold their stories and created a hail of bad publicity and feeling.

Spot on Fin; I couldn't agree more.

RM
 
#46
Grrr, sorry I mentioned DK and used the word 'left'. I meant only to point out some reasonable comments from Americans who are A: currently on the left side of debate and B: personally interested in military matters.

I admit most Americans don't know squat about military matters. We LOVE the military and guns and stuff (you've seen out movies) but we don't know squat about how the military really works. (Again, the movies.) "We can beat up any country!" That's the start and end of the lesson for many.

On the left, the misunderstandings are bigger and there are substantial numbers who are simple war-is-bad types. But there actually are some American on the left who realize we live on planet not quite brimming with pacifism, so it's not quite time to go out of the defense business.

Currently the 'American left' is substantially bigger than usual in recent memory. Not everyone on 'the left' is a tree-hugging tofu-muncher. The 'left' is currently a big place. It includes reasonable people such as CDR Huber, at least for now. I cannot speak for theCommander's politics other than to observe it is obvious which side he thinks can do the better job going forth.

I feel like I opened the locked door that let wossname, the oxygen thief in here. I just hope to cut across the sterotypes a bit, in these days with a lot of dumb things being said by armchair admirals.
 
#48
Unser_Giftzwerg said:
Grrr, sorry I mentioned DK and used the word 'left'. I meant only to point out some reasonable comments from Americans who are A: currently on the left side of debate and B: personally interested in military matters.

I admit most Americans don't know squat about military matters. We LOVE the military and guns and stuff (you've seen out movies) but we don't know squat about how the military really works. (Again, the movies.) "We can beat up any country!" That's the start and end of the lesson for many.

On the left, the misunderstandings are bigger and there are substantial numbers who are simple war-is-bad types. But there actually are some American on the left who realize we live on planet not quite brimming with pacifism, so it's not quite time to go out of the defense business.

Currently the 'American left' is substantially bigger than usual in recent memory. Not everyone on 'the left' is a tree-hugging tofu-muncher. The 'left' is currently a big place. It includes reasonable people such as CDR Huber, at least for now. I cannot speak for theCommander's politics other than to observe it is obvious which side he thinks can do the better job going forth.

I feel like I opened the locked door that let wossname, the oxygen thief in here. I just hope to cut across the sterotypes a bit, in these days with a lot of dumb things being said by armchair admirals.
The American Military is top-notch in every sense of the word but we have one major problem and one minor: We always gear up to fight the last war, and we can get so hide-bound in our ways that we refuse to see what needs to be done. For example, in Vietnam, the Marines knew how to fight an insurgency due to roughly 40-50 years in Haiti, Nicarauga, but the Army wouldn't let us do it and geared up like the place was Europe, for God's sakes.

Now in Iraq, the problem is different: there are no hearts and minds to win, from what i've heard: the ones who would welcome the terrorists cannot be won, but for damn sure the ones who were on our side are wavering due to mismanagement by people still trying to fight GW1. Toppling Saddam was right in my opinion; the major thing I object to is that there was no long-range planning involved about what was to happen after we did it.
 
#49
Hey there Jarhead, from about twenty miles north of Great Lakes.

I don't mind acting the armchair general in front of fellow civilians but I feel a bit leery doing so around pros. I'm not sure toppling Saddam was the best thing to do. I think Father Time would have done the job for us, way over deadline but on the cheap. Setting that aside, let's say the best choice was to intervene to topple Iraq.

Then your take on "always fighting the last war" is dead-on. A successful strategy would involve something other than the old blitzkreig. It wuld take a massive political component in parallel with the military effort. It would require support of world opinion, and of most of the regional powers. With political support it would be 'the World versus the Republican Guards'. That's the matchup you want seen, not Uncle Sam versus the Iraqi version of the Minuteman.

That gives you a chance to break the back of the RG, take out Saddam, and leave enough of the Iraq Army theoretically standing to withdraw the Western units. With regional support, you maybe can do this without Turkey, Iran et al rushing in to fill the power vacuum left behind.

That's a very different war from GW1 and from what we saw. Of course, I don't know if enough political support could be created, or if the current administration could pull it off if they wanted to. I do know such an effort would take time Lots of time to groom the political terrain.

I have my doubts the appropriate talent exists in the White House to imagine and execute such an approach. Even if it did exist, the willpower did not. The war was not planned around the goal of fighting it as well as possible. It was planned around the goal of starting it as fast as possible, just to make sure it started. And now we have the tiger by the tail.
 
#50
Bergen said:
There has been a lot of rubbish printed about the behaviour of the captured British Servicemen during the time that they were being held by Iran. A lot of the more idiotic comments have been from people who should know better, particularly in the USA.

Here is a link to Commander Jeff Huber USN (Ret.) - he writes more sense than any journalist on this subject.


http://zenhuber.blogspot.com/

RM
Considering the only people who truly know what happened are the 15 who were there and the Iranians who were 'questioning' them, Its good to see someone coming out on the side of the troops. All the crap that has been printed in newspapers about how scandalous/shameful etc - lets put a jorno in the same situation and see how long it takes before they are begging for clean underwear and offering to sell their family for freedom. If you dont know the whole facts of what happened, how can you possibly put forward an honest and thoughtful comment.

:eave them alone to get on with their lives. If they make some money from getting the truth out - SO WHAT. Faye has already stated that some of what she is getting is going to HMS Cornwall. For once lets back our Sailors, be gkad they are home, offer up a toast and leave them in peace to live their lives
 

chieftiff

War Hero
Moderator
#51
Jarhead,
War has a terrible habit of solving the immediate problem only to create a myriad of others, we know this and yet seem to conveniently forget the lessons learnt. Iraq is a nightmare of our own making, whilst I agree it was right to topple Saddam and his regime I am not so sure the full implications of rebuilding a nation, with a very different culture to our own were fully thought through, I for one got caught up in the gung ho pre-war propoganda.

I don't know if the World has changed or if its just me but cynicism reigns supreme and anything that's done for the right reasons is treated as though it were done for the bad. Our ability to impose what we see as good; democracy, freedom of speech and fundamental human rights is seriously reduced when we don't actually have experience of the culture onto which we would impose such a regime and our own versions of good differ albeit slightly

Good posts though mate, equally from U_G............see we can agree with our colonial friends :lol: .
 
#52
I commend those who chose not to sell their story at least they will be able to go back to duty with their heads held high and their personal dignity intact. I just heard the 2nd Sea Lord attempting to justify the decision to let them sell their stories. Could these 'intelligent' people not see that they have given a gift to Iran?

If it was right to topple Saddam why are we not toppling all the other brutal regimes around the world?
 
#56
finknottle said:
I commend those who chose not to sell their story at least they will be able to go back to duty with their heads held high and their personal dignity intact. I just heard the 2nd Sea Lord attempting to justify the decision to let them sell their stories. Could these 'intelligent' people not see that they have given a gift to Iran?

If it was right to topple Saddam why are we not toppling all the other brutal regimes around the world?
I truly do not know, except even an idiot learns (after the first time) not to put his hand into the disposal in the sink and flip the switch. North Korea, Iran, Syria, etc. would all pose a LOT more dangerous problems than the outdated and dilapidated Iraqi army did.

(and yes, i am calling Bush an idiot. I just wish that Bush, Sr. had treated his son like Donald Trump apparently taught his daughter. While everyone agrees she got the job because of Nepotism, no one believes she only kept it because of that.)
 
#58
This may be of interest to everyone... The MOD have just announced, presumably in reaction to all the flak they're getting, that they are reviewing the issues surrounding the sale of experiences/stories by Service personnel. In the meantime they have banned the sale of stories by Service personnel.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6538921.stm

From what has been reported so far I am very unhappy. The Mirror has reported that '...Arthur Batchelor, 20, the youngest of the British sailors to be held captive, told the Daily Mirror about his "nightmare" at the hands of his captors and how he "cried like a baby" in his cell.'

This is hardly conducive to Batchelor's self-esteem or to his long-term well-being should there be longer term psychological sequlæ. It was already clear at the press conference that he was showing signs of psychological stress. It is precisely because of the effects of media exposure that ratings like Batchelor ought to be protected!

Steve.
 
#59
Well said 'ukday' - everybody has had their fill of this, just leave it alone and let the 15 get their lives back the best way they can! It's gonna be tough no matter how they decide to do it but what will NOT help is all the 'experts' telling them how to! there's only a few experts on this 15 of them!!! (plus the 4 booties from the last effort - tho' shorter much the same apparantly Ok there's a few more but they were all in different situations)

And whilst were at it lets get back to the bloody war - oh! its a police action now ain't it? the war was ?won? four years ago!! Anyway whatever it is there's still people fighting and dying out there, so lets get back to them! LEAVE THE OTHERS ALONE - THEY NEED THE PEACE!
 
#60
There's a lot of comment on other service forums I frequent from other contributers - Armchairs Admirals, if you like - who like nothing more than mud slinging, regardess of the truth.

It might be deporable to some that some are accepted money for their stories, but they have been placed in a Catch 22 situation.

Is it not better the stories of their internment come from the horse's mouth rather than from friends, friends of friends, etc. that desparate gutter press would have turned to in the first instance.

Then if these captives have played with the facts of the matter they alone are answerable their bosses.

As for money, its a matter for their indvidual consciences how it distributed and/or spent.
 
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