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Becoming an officer?

Mayo3891

Midshipman
Im joining up on 21st oct 07 as wep eng tech, I've got a degree but not engineering based so i couldn't join as an officer.
The guy at my careers made out that he'd put me forward for fast track (Dont even know what this is) an "in no time" the navy would give me the qualifications i needed to become an officer.
Then i read it could take me up to 10 years!? I feel a bit duped but not that bothered really, just wondered if anyone had a clue what im on about an what the fasttrack thing is? does it exist!? :thanks:
 

Karma

War Hero
england_expects said:
surely you can become an officer as long as you have 140 UCAS points and pass the AIB well....?

Not as an engineer, you need an accredited degree.
 

Ninja_Stoker

War Hero
Moderator
As has been stated you need an accredited Engineering Degree to join directly as an engineering officer.

Training as an Engineering Technician (Weapons Engineer) will NOT give you the qualification for Weapons Engineering Officer from basic phase two trade training.

You must read the literature given to you by the AFCO & from the RN Website. If the job isn't what you wish to do, DO NOT join. Let someone else have the place rather than join up claiming that it somebody else's fault you're there. Whilst it is possible to achieve accelerated advancement if you apply yourself, it is by no means guaranteed.

If you have a degree, one would assume you are capable of researching a job. No-one has duped you, the information is accessable to all. Given that you must have been waiting to join for nearly 12 months or so, it is rather surprising you have not thought to find out about the job until now.

Good luck in your choice - nothing like leaving it to the last minute eh?
 

slim

War Hero
Which degree do you hold, and from where?
I believe that it is still possible to become an officer from the lower deck but it is a much longer process.
In my day many artificers became engineering officers, though now that the artificer is now sadly an endangered species you would need to ask if the route is still open.
You are however joining an engineering branch and I am certain that you will enjoy the work more than production line welding.
My advice would be to join enjoy your time on the lower deck but do not lose sight of your ambition to become an officer. Use all the educational facilities available and with dedication you should be able to attain your aspirations.
 

Karma

War Hero
slim said:
In my day many artificers became engineering officers, though now that the artificer is now sadly an endangered species you would need to ask if the route is still open.

It's currently about 50/50 direct entry/ extracted in the engineer branch and there will be an ongoing requirement.

Whilst artificers per se are no more, the engineering technician lives on with a slightly different label, although the training is phased more appropriately.
 

slim

War Hero
Karma said:
slim said:
In my day many artificers became engineering officers, though now that the artificer is now sadly an endangered species you would need to ask if the route is still open.

It's currently about 50/50 direct entry/ extracted in the engineer branch and there will be an ongoing requirement.

Whilst artificers per se are no more, the engineering technician lives on with a slightly different label, although the training is phased more appropriately.

From all that I read in RR forums Karma it may be that the training is more appropriate but it certainly does not seem to be as thorough as the Artificer and Mechanician training of old.
It's true that the RN of old tended to over train but the current tendency of sending for civilian experts to rectify opdefs at the drop of a hat did not happen years ago. The Mechanician/Artificer normally repaired the kit themselves.
 

Karma

War Hero
slim said:
From all that I read in RR forums Karma it may be that the training is more appropriate but it certainly does not seem to be as thorough as the Artificer and Mechanician training of old.

The training delivery is staged, by the time it's finished an ET will be as equipped as a tiff to do the job expected at that level. Mechs no longer exist, because everyone goes through the same pipeline for their branch, subject to specific PJTs.

It's true that the RN of old tended to over train but the current tendency of sending for civilian experts to rectify opdefs at the drop of a hat did not happen years ago.

Doesn't happen now either. I'll acknowledge that a lot of kit is made up of line replaceable units which reduce the need for deep diagnostics.

The Mechanician/Artificer normally repaired the kit themselves.

ETs, once they're finished training, will stil be able to do that within the constraints of the kit they look after. I'm sure you recall from your own Phalanx days just how many components were beyond the scope of the repair facilities onboard.

I'm not suggesting that one is right and the other wrong, it's just different from what it was in the past. The market demands different things and there is much less requirement for the semi-skilled capabilities of mechanics. Of course it all needs to be tested in anger, so we'll just need to wait and see how it works. OMs were a decent idea in principle but failed by poor leadership at the SR and mid seniority officer levels.
 

slim

War Hero
I have been out of the loop for some time Karma and my information on the RN now is gained mainly from RR. From this it seems that the RN are no longer training anyone to the same level as they did twenty years ago. Perhaps this is good for the RN and good for civilian contractors who have to send engineers to rectify equipment.
Do the current batch of ETs spend a two year period of workshop/classroom training the Mechanician had to complete in order to elevate him from the mechanic?
 

slim

War Hero
Karma said:
slim said:
The Mechanician/Artificer normally repaired the kit themselves.

ETs, once they're finished training, will stil be able to do that within the constraints of the kit they look after. I'm sure you recall from your own Phalanx days just how many components were beyond the scope of the repair facilities onboard.

quote]

You correctly state that many of the Phalanx components were beyond the scope of on board repair facilities. Most of the time boards were replaced. But extender cards were available and most of the Artificers of the day were capable of reading the circuit diagrams, diagnosing to component level and replacing the faulty component if the need arose.
Could todays ET.
 

slim

War Hero
Karma said:
slim said:
Could todays ET.

In principle, yes. But as none have completed training yet the capability remains untested.

What academic training do the new ET have to do to reach the same level as the old PO Tiff?
i.e. How many weeks (in total) in a training establishments classrooms, labs and workshops?
 

Karma

War Hero
slim said:
What academic training do the new ET have to do to reach the same level as the old PO Tiff?
i.e. How many weeks (in total) in a training establishments classrooms, labs and workshops?

I wasn't involved in that level of detail, when I was involved in the discussion we were talking in terms of capability, not training hours.

In principle a PO ET will be comparable to a PO Tiff, an LET will be less deeply trained as an LxEA at the moment. The point is that the training is delivered over the course of a career to CPO/ PO (subject to branch) rather than front loaded.
 

slim

War Hero
Karma said:
slim said:
What academic training do the new ET have to do to reach the same level as the old PO Tiff?
i.e. How many weeks (in total) in a training establishments classrooms, labs and workshops?

I wasn't involved in that level of detail, when I was involved in the discussion we were talking in terms of capability, not training hours.

In principle a PO ET will be comparable to a PO Tiff, an LET will be less deeply trained as an LxEA at the moment. The point is that the training is delivered over the course of a career to CPO/ PO (subject to branch) rather than front loaded.

Spoken as always like a politician Karma, now how about a direct answer instead of the load of flannel that I have come to expect from you.

To others out there:
Can anyone else answer the simple question:
How much Academic training (shore establishment classrooms, labs and workshops) in total will and ET have completed by the time he is rated petty officer?
 

Karma

War Hero
slim said:
Spoken as always like a politician Karma, now how about a direct answer instead of the load of flannel that I have come to expect from you.

How about, I don't actually know because that's a level of detail far below where I was interested when I was involved in the debate?

The service has a requirement for people with specific skills, how to deliver those skills is the problem of the training empire, somewhere I have had the good fortune to avoid over the length of my career.

I'm sorry that you appear to be struggling with the concepts here, but frankly an hour by hour comparison of the syllabi doesn't really add much to the debate.
 

Helios

Badgeman
Hi Mayo, I'm sort of in the same position as you. I'm joining as an AET but my ambition is to be an AEO. There are ways I think that you can achieve this but I think it's best at the moment to just concentrate on passing your basic and professional training to the best of your ability, and then start thinking about how you're going to climb the ladder.

Good luck anyway mate. Looks like you'll be in Raleigh a week before I arrive!
 

slim

War Hero
Karma said:
slim said:
Spoken as always like a politician Karma, now how about a direct answer instead of the load of flannel that I have come to expect from you.

How about, I don't actually know because that's a level of detail far below where I was interested when I was involved in the debate?

The service has a requirement for people with specific skills, how to deliver those skills is the problem of the training empire, somewhere I have had the good fortune to avoid over the length of my career.

I'm sorry that you appear to be struggling with the concepts here, but frankly an hour by hour comparison of the syllabi doesn't really add much to the debate.

Nor do your woolly political type answers which have so far not answered one question. All they have done is stated that the training is to a level which the service requires. This is typical of most of your replies.

So for the discussion so far, stand fast Karma.

1. Can anyone answer the simple question that I asked previously.
What length of academic training (in weeks) in a shore establishment (classroom, lab and workshops) will the new breed of ET have completed when rated Petty officer?

2. For any artificers still serving>
Do you consider that your replacements are going to be given the depth of training that you have received? If not do you believe that the service will suffer because of this or not?


As I said stand fast Karma I would like answers not flannel!
 

Karma

War Hero
slim said:
Nor do your woolly political type answers which have so far not answered one question. All they have done is stated that the training is to a level which the service requires. This is typical of most of your replies.

Most of what I say recognises that the world isn't a simplistic and deterministic system. Given that I've already answered the question a ouple of times I'm comping back to the conclusion that your issue is with me, rather than the debate. It certainly appears to be a repeat of the discussions where it turns into attacks on me, rather than discussion of the subject at hand. It's a fairly common technique used online, frequently it's even done with a degree of style. Not always though ;)
 
slim said:
1. Can anyone answer the simple question that I asked previously.
What length of academic training (in weeks) in a shore establishment (classroom, lab and workshops) will the new breed of ET have completed when rated Petty officer?

Slim, obviously the actual length will depend on the trade and the ET's specialisation, but it will be much less than the old style Artificer because it was decided by the review that detailed academics and trade skills aren't needed.

The job will be more fault diagnosis followed by component replacement rather than detailed repairs of Printed Circuit Boards etc as in many cases it is cheaper and quicker. In fact, in many cases, opening up servers, black boxes etc will void the manufacturer's warranty (yes, really!).

The days of ERAs milling and turning and WEAs soldering in a dedicated workshop are gone. Whether or not this is a good thing will only be clear when the current joiners reach POET in a few years time.

Hope this helps.
 
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