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Bean Counting Gone Too Far

21_Man

War Hero
What numbnutz would deploy a ship to the Falkland Islands without an operational air defence system? Remember 1982?....what were there lots of?
 
This is awfully reminiscent of 'Catch-22' except Milo Minderbender is actually following official MoD policy (link):

In Heller's Catch 22, Milo Minderbender is the entrepreneur of the company who swaps the airmen's parachutes for share certificates and then sells them on to whoever will have them, "for the good of the country". Milo goes about setting up M&M enterprises who's defining moment comes when they bomb there [sic] own Airfield in order to save planes and time and to get rid of some much hated cotton which he has accumulated.
 

NotmeChief

Banned
'Questions need to be put to the navy asking how that was allowed to happen because you cannot have ships deploying without important equipment.'

We all know it's not the Navy that needs to be asked.
 

lsadirty

War Hero
As a retired sun dodger, I find this astonishing - might as well not have bothered to send the ships out in the first place for all the good they would be. As for having "gun defences", IIRC, a Mk whatever 4.5 can't shoot 40 miles, but SEA DART can - what range do aircraft have to close to to fire a missile ? - not within gun range methinks. The bloke who carried out the "risk assessment" should be publicly put on trial, and his political AND Naval masters who allowed this to happen should be in the dock beside him. WTF is going on here ???
 

instinct

Lantern Swinger
Strange was talking to the weapon engineers on Gloucester in march time they said there were loads of sea darts that needed firing as they where cheaper to fire than dispose of. And she did have two live ones in the racks when sitting alongside in Portsmouth FFS!
 

Raggedy

Midshipman
"Enemy in sight!"

"Sound off action stations!"

"Warn Engine Room!, turns for 30 knots!"

" Yes Gun,s?..WHAT!..Oh yes, I forgot, silly me, yes very well, thank you."

"Stand down everyone............Disregard........No fecking Ammo "No1", savings and all that, Ahh well! never mind, maybe some other day eh!"
 
So how effective will the new "we can track all the aircraft over the North Atlantic at the same time" :toilet: Darings :toilet: going to be as it would appear they will be fitted for but not with missile to follow the trend.

Lads why don't you all pack up and go home on an extended M and M. Just hope th Bombers are carrying there ICBM's and not just empty tubes.

Still the XO can always shout "Whooosh!!!!!!!!!" thats one shot down on the Port bow at 20 miles."

Wish they were aving a larf of Tonwells Bridge.


Nutty
 
Now is this the IPT saving money on the Outload and relife cycle or Fleet saving bodies on gapped weaponeers; or both?

For the last 10 years plus, the order of priority has been "float, move, fight". I personally find the missing bodies more of a worry than waiting, say, 14 days for an Outload.
 

ctfairway

Lantern Swinger
I am sure the decision to effectively mothball the seadart system on these ships would not have been taken lightly. No doubt there were some even more painful capability cuts in other areas that did not have to be made because the money was saved by this option. Without seeing the other available options it is hard to judge the correctness of this savings measure.
 

Not_a_boffin

War Hero
ctfairway said:
I am sure the decision to effectively mothball the seadart system on these ships would not have been taken lightly. No doubt there were some even more painful capability cuts in other areas that did not have to be made because the money was saved by this option. Without seeing the other available options it is hard to judge the correctness of this savings measure.

Indeed. It demonstrates just how far down the DECs and Fleet are having to go to get anywhere near the savings (30% on last year last I heard) being demanded by that friend of the forces Mr Brown. To even think of deploying a warship without her primary weapon system fully ammunitioned and worse without a fully trained team is unconscionable. Unfortuntately, I fear its going to get worse before it gets better.....
 
In 2003 we had 11 type 42's so let us guess that in 2008 we have no more than 2 or 3 operational and in commission. Now if at least 2 are no longer fitted with their main weapon system and reason to exist, what really is the pojnt.

So if Exeter was in the Gulf and it looked like it was going to kick off she would have to return to Portsmouth and then load and re-activate the Sea Dart system. Then test, confirm and work up the system. So what are we looking at 5 to 10 weeks?.

Now as P O L said. "Now is this the IPT saving money on the Outload and relife cycle or Fleet saving bodies on gapped weaponeers; or both"

Just what are IPT?, Outload?, relief cycle? or Fleet? saving bodies on gap? weaponeers?. Or is it new speak for we do not have enough money/crew so now have warships without their main weapon sytem even if it is 40 odd years old.

We seem to have reached the point where the RN can no longer be considered a fighting Blue Water Navy. What chance CVF's?

Nutty
 

instinct

Lantern Swinger
Nutty said:
We seem to have reached the point where the RN can no longer be considered a fighting Blue Water Navy. What chance CVF's?

Nutty

CVF's? Oh we'll get them! labour wants votes! Now something to fly off them is another matter.....
 

Purple_twiglet

War Hero
Moderator
Plenty of other navies, including USN have deployed vessels with missile system mothballed. These 2 hulls are approaching the end of their lives and probably won't do a major deployment again. We are short of cash, spares and people and its better to direct resources where required, rather than maintain a notional capaiblity which will not be used back in home waters.
 
Nutty said:
Just what are IPT?, Outload?, relief cycle? or Fleet? saving bodies on gap? weaponeers?. Or is it new speak for we do not have enough money/crew so now have warships without their main weapon sytem even if it is 40 odd years old.

IPT; Integrated Project Team.

International Guided Missiles and Systems IPT for the whizz bang bit

Maritime Gunnery and Missile Systems IPT for the launch and fire control bit

Outload; issue of a weapon to a ship and its embarkation

Relife Cylce; sometimes called Repair Cycle. The processing of off-loaded (returned) weapons from a ship through an Armament Depot (Munition Depot in Jointspeak) to make serviceable and in-life for the next outload

Fleet; Commander in Chief (Fleet), the Maritime Frontline Commander (in Jointspeak and also known as Fleet Command). The "owner" and operator of ships not in Upkeep (Jointspeak for Refit) and their ship's Company

Gapped; the result of leaving a billet in a ship's Company unfilled

Weaponeer; ship's weapon specialists (as referred to colloquially in some quarters and partly Jointspeak)

Jointspeak; (pre-emptive answer) the language common to Joint Service Warfare (sometimes called "purplespeak)
 
Purple_twiglet said:
Plenty of other navies, including USN have deployed vessels with missile system mothballed. These 2 hulls are approaching the end of their lives and probably won't do a major deployment again. We are short of cash, spares and people and its better to direct resources where required, rather than maintain a notional capaiblity which will not be used back in home waters.

We are not actually short as you suggest, our esteemed government has decide to allocate the cash elsewhere. Despite what many think we are not a poor country, we just don't spend our money wisely, frittering it away rather than investing in the security of the realm
 
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