Basic training

[Deleted 7]

Compared to a good few of you, I went through basic in 1999.

As I remember if 1 person mucked up, the lot of you did. Countless times we were made to run up and down the drill square, run up and down the hill that led up to the NAAFI by the drill shed etc, think you get the point huh?

We were given those fleece blankets that left you scratching all night. tiny lockers and pillows that had countless used stains over. Now the trainees are given duvets.

Now, from what I hear, the only people allowed to make you run or do press ups are the club swingers.

Do you think, discipline wise that basic training has become a little soft to what it used to be?

 

[NozzyNozzer]

I think training needs to some degree to reflect the society to which it recruits belong. What went on in my day would have been completely unacceptable in the late 1990s - like making you run up and down Laundry Hill in your PJs for skylarking in the Annexe after lights-out (first night at G) or with just your boots on if you hadn't any (and that meant BOOTS ONLY). :roll:

I'm pleased that you had the same blankets we had in 1959-60: you soon got used to it, when you were knackered after a day's training! I didn't know trainees get duvets now: how do you correctly fold a duvet I wonder? :? Do they still have Seamanship Manuals now or is all the info stored on waterproof Video iPods now? :wink:

Did they make non-swimmers go round Raleigh with a life-jacket on, just out of interest, or make them wear white trousers and a blue top in 1999?

1999 Jenny! I just can't believe it! You're so VERY young! You really are still barely a Junior! 8O

 

[grefs]

1999, I should have a zimmer frame, don't it make you feel old!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[stripey588]

i joined the rm in 1990, and lasted till week 27 before i wrapped.

during that time, we were what you might call beasted (thats definatley what i would call it).

we were told to fall in at a certain time for each lesson, and where to fall in. as is usual with newbys, someone was always late. the training team would then announce "thats 2 minute you owe me gentlemen". (they didnt shout, but calmly reminded us, and the tone was more ominous than a guardsmans shout).

on the 2nd excersize, "gruesome twosome" as we called it, we were soundly beasted on woodbury common. none of the training tean ever laid a finger on any recruit, but we could tell they were dis-pleased.

and there was no way we would refuse to do as ordered. sgt mullaney (sp) was a small wirey chap, who looked vicious as hell.

the whole troop was made to run round rifles above heads (not resting on helmets), dive into gorse bushes (all the way in) and up and down hills ("it pays to be a winner" was a brilliant incentive after a while).

one rather loud cockney lad was then taken away for furthe "instruction".

several men cried, wrapped, wanted out, etc, but after the initial beasting, and the explanation, they all stayed and cracked on with training.

there are some (not my training team) who did abuse their position and phyically abuse recruits, no doubt.

we were beasted because we screwed up big time, and it was expalined to us that if we were give a task/timing/job etc, then we arrived on time/did the job/task, as other lives depended on it.

atfer i left, several years later, there was a documentary on tv which showed a RM MAJOR trying to say that pressups/beastings etc was not the way to go, and that recruits should be treated differently.

my personal view.

recruits are taken from every day life, taught how to soldier, which includes killing amongst other things, and part of the marine ethos, is that you are all family.

you trust your fellow marines with your life and vice versa.

sometimes their methods may seem extreme, but the end result is a marine straight from training who can fit into a cdo unit, and go straight to a war zone, and fit in.

we had a good training team (588 troop), and some were not so lucky.

certainley recruits are more aware of thier rights these days.

but how do you train soldiers/marines to kill, then spend weeks /years not doing what they are trained for, but expect them to keep up the skill so that they can do exactley what they trained for at the drop of a hat?

i think that is down to the troop sgt. ours was well aware of all that went on, and he was severe, but fair with it.

we were issued basic kit, and taught how to use it, then near the end of training, we could buy and use personnal kit, (what a differance a bergan makes compared to a 58 large pack).

all i can say is from the sounds of it, yes they are getting it easier, but i do not have the actual proof of todays training to comfirm this.

awaiting incoming

yours aye

jason

www.savedutchy.co.uk

 

[Rastanking]

Having been in the RN and the RAF basic training is definately on the decline, I remember my basic in the RN in 1990 and like some posts have said you were beasted if you messed up, running up to the fire station and back and around the parade ground with an SLR above your head, I enjoyed it though!

The RAF basic is, oh my god!!, awful softly, softly can't be beasted anymore, you get a TOF(Training Occurence Form), means nothing really and doesn't follow you to the next establishment, we were told to force whisper the timing as we marched even on our pass out, I was disgusted!!

Is basic training easier today than times gone by, of course it is, but I think it is a reflection of society rather than a reflection on the RN!

Rant over.

 

[MightyCrash]

It's called change people! From what I gather sailors gone by have always moaned and dripped about how cadets get it easier than their day! Now we all live in a PC world I think it is more of a case of the top brass being "scared" to be too much for the kids. Unfortunalty I have a feeling that when they get to see they just have to learn a bit quicker that us older lot.

 

[MightyCrash]

It's called change people! From what I gather sailors gone by have always moaned and dripped about how cadets get it easier than their day! Now we all live in a PC world I think it is more of a case of the top brass being "scared" to be too much for the kids. Unfortunalty I have a feeling that when they get to see they just have to learn a bit quicker that us older lot.

Oops I meant Sea! LOL

 

[Lingyai]

If it gets any softer it will hardly be worth doing. How do you make a recruit do something if they don't want to?
Gentle coaxing and encouragement? Takes Too Long
Lead by example ? If they have the inclination
Threat of punishment ? If you are allowed to punish
Twatting ? Normaly had the desired effect, still not allowed but you can get away with it.

The trouble is that basic used to be tough to weed out the dross but now the forces are getting so desperate they need the dross to make up numbers. Sad really.

 

[NozzyNozzer]

Having been in the RN and the RAF basic training is definately on the decline, I remember my basic in the RN in 1990 and like some posts have said you were beasted if you messed up, running up to the fire station and back and around the parade ground with an SLR above your head, I enjoyed it though!

I'm not sure if some of us old codgers here would regard that as beasting, rather as gentle treatment! Didn't they ever make you do bunny hops round the parade ground until one of the class ended up in sickbay with torn ligaments (as one of our class did!!!) or winded by an instructor because you forgot to put the safety catch back on your 303. No Mess scrubbings of 15 year old boys with acne, through no fault of their own? Mind you we are going back to the naval dark ages here of 1959-60! The last millenium... :lol: :evil: Clearly in the 1990s you all had it SOFT, and now you softies are complaining about the ultrasoft treatment meted out to youngsters of today. Its always been the case. Have you ever read Lionel Yexley? He discusses exactly the same attitudes with Victorian sailors bemoaning the softness of the boys' training hulks - which by today's standards would seen as hotbeds of unregulated sadism and misery that, in fact they often were, even by the standards of the time! :lol:

My own view is that anyone who joined the mob as an adult had it soft compared to how us Juniors were treated, in the days when we had seperate adult/boy training establishments.

How many of you lot complaining joined as Juniors (UA) or (U)?

 

[Lingyai]

My own view is that anyone who joined the mob as an adult had it soft compared to how us Juniors were treated, in the days when we had seperate adult/boy training establishments.

Out of interest Nozzy, what were the main differences between the adults and boys training?

 

[NozzyNozzer]

If it gets any softer it will hardly be worth doing. How do you make a recruit do something if they don't want to?
Gentle coaxing and encouragement? Takes Too Long
Lead by example ? If they have the inclination
Threat of punishment ? If you are allowed to punish
Twatting ? Normaly had the desired effect, still not allowed but you can get away with it.

The trouble is that basic used to be tough to weed out the dross but now the forces are getting so desperate they need the dross to make up numbers. Sad really.

The dross, as you put it, were unable to leave in the bad old days, and had to get used to it and learn to cope. Actually as one who ran away from G because I couldn't cope at the time, I was part of that dross. Staying did me a lot of good, but youngsters today get the opportunity to leave too early in my view - they need longer to shake down.

I think encouragement has its place: at G it was certainly more helpful for those of us who were scared of heights, during the much dreaded (for us at least) Mast Class when confronted with the prospect of having to climb up to and then around the Devil's Elbow 80ft off the deck! The threats of dire punishment, twatting, etc were useless. What made a difference was the instructor actually going up with you and patiently talking you through the whole, humiliating, terrifying process. It was humiliating because some of us, myself included I might add, were in tears. I only went up as far as I absolutely had to and came down as quickly as possible, but it was good for character building: I can see that clearly now, with hindsight.

Regarding the differences between boy/adults training. Essentially as a Junior you went through a year long basic training (well 15 months in my case) which was physically & psychologically arduous. I seriously doubt adult recruits were hit, caned (I got 6 for my 'Run') made to do their dhobeying in a g-string, made to run up and down a hill in their pyjamas or just their boots on (as one lad had to) because were we talking on our first night in the RN, after lights-out - all excited - suddenly deflated, etc. Were adults made to scrub the path outside their Mess with their toothbrushes? Were adults made to do bunny hops rounds the parade ground, stand in polished dustbins shouting "I am fcuking rubbish, SIR!", have their kit literally buried (so I have heard), punched, beaten with a rope's end, set up so they get caned for something they didn't do because the Mess Chief hates Catholics, etc, etc? Maybe, maybe not. Many instructors were good blokes and acted professionally, but others were not. To be fair, unless you have been taught how to train teenage boys, you may not know any better.

I suppose as an ex-boy I naturally assume the adults had it soft. Perhaps it was otherwise? Enlighten me. :idea:

 

[Nutty]

Nozzy yer forgot

Sew red silk chain stitch(OK if your name was M Tay, hard if it was M J Vanlanderwyck, both real boys names)
15 old shillings (75 pence) a week or there abouts wages
doubling every where every day except Sunday
Open locker policy
All kit folded the width of a Seaman Hand Book with name showing
Kit musters to often to mention
40 to a mess
Pulling a fecking great cutter up and down the Orwell in winter
Going on leave depart G****s at 5 am breakfast 3 am
fight it out with 2000 other 15 year old ravenous kids to get fed in GMC
No radio or TV
Film Once a week for 2nd class boys, twice a week for first class boys.
No private property, clothing of any type including shoes, electrical goods etc other than stationary, pens and reading matter
Shore leave Sat/Sun 2 pm to 9 pm (I think) when you made 1st Class Boy
Strictly no talking or leaving the mess deck area from Lights out to call the hands.
No food in mess decks except that purchased ashore, in the NAFFI or sent by way of a parcel by your kindly parents.
Compulsory Church

That was 61/62 Janner may tell us how he suffered at Raleigh about that time.

Nutty

 

[NozzyNozzer]

Nozzy yer forgot

Sew red silk chain stitch(OK if your name was M Tay, hard if it was M J Vanlanderwyck, both real boys names)
15 old shillings (75 pence) a week or there abouts wages
doubling every where every day except Sunday
Open locker policy
All kit folded the width of a Seaman Hand Book with name showing
Kit musters to often to mention
40 to a mess
Pulling a fecking great cutter up and down the Orwell in winter
Going on leave depart G****s at 5 am breakfast 3 am
fight it out with 2000 other 15 year old ravenous kids to get fed in GMC
No radio or TV
Film Once a week for 2nd class boys, twice a week for first class boys.
No private property, clothing of any type including shoes, electrical goods etc other than stationary, pens and reading matter
Shore leave Sat/Sun 2 pm to 9 pm (I think) when you made 1st Class Boy
Strictly no talking or leaving the mess deck area from Lights out to call the hands.
No food in mess decks except that purchased ashore, in the NAFFI or sent by way of a parcel by your kindly parents.
Compulsory Church

That was 61/62 Janner may tell us how he suffered at Raleigh about that time.

Nutty

I had forgotten about the GMC!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Didn't Darwin coin a name for it, in fact for G generally: Survival of the fittest!

The rest, well pretty benign (relativly speaking)! I'd assumed that everything else apart for sewing names in kit was done by the grown-ups as well. If not, then I think they should all be recalled from retirement/promotion/Wardroom and have to experience the delights of boys' training to strengthen their characters and make them more rounded and robust matelots. Compulsory Mass - never did no harm, just made me atheist faster - all that hypocrisy!

Can I nominate The_Punisher who I'm sure can't have been to G with his illiberal attitudes, to be the first to experience G hospitality! :wink:

 

[Jones265R]

I joined as a junior in 1994, at the time we there was very few of us (for about a couple of weeks I was the only one) therefore we were trained and messed alongside older recruits. There was no real differences except I got paid a damn site less and got the urine extracted more frequently as I was greener than a green paint factory in Greenland. On balance I think its fair to say that today’s teenager are not quite as naive and more widely educated than previous generations however perversely they also don’t seem as mature. :roll: In words of the immortal Peter Kay "What’s that all about?"
Has training become soft? That is one way of looking at it. Methods have certainly changed and hopefully they will continue to change to meet the demands of an ever changing society that recruits are drawn from. What you have to remember is that the current Royal Navy requires its ratings and officers to have different skills to what was expected in the past, even your basic dabber is expected to have a basic knowledge of IT and technology.
You also have to bear in mind the shift in mainstream education from a strict disciplinarian environment to a “praise and reward†system rewarding what at one time would have been normal good manners and not to be remarked on. This is perhaps the main problem how do you move from this caring sharing environment to harsh hierarchical almost dictatorship organisation without alienating recruits. At the end of the day every member of the armed forces is a volunteer and almost all of them are joining to make the Navy a career. If recruits feel they are being treated unfairly they will leave at the earliest opportunity and that benefits no-one.
So the question shouldn’t be “is basic training to soft?†But “is basic training appropriate to the requirements of the Navy and the expectations of the recruits joining it?†Not sure if that’s one for me to answer, in fact I think the poor barsteward that has to make that decision has a lot on his plate.

 

[Nutty]

Jones

Now that is a sensble way to look at it.

Nutty

PS Nozzy I was not looking for the hard painfull bits just the every day grind of a JR's training establishment.

 

[dunkers]

I think to some extent the recruiting office tries to weed out the innapropriate characters - so those who are totally unsuitable don't ever get through the gates of Raleigh, and anyone who just makes it is probably sorted out pretty quick.

The RN is becoming ever more technical; those with the intelligence to cope with that are probably not the types to misbehave... at least not too much :lol:

 

[NozzyNozzer]

I think to some extent the recruiting office tries to weed out the innapropriate characters - so those who are totally unsuitable don't ever get through the gates of Raleigh, and anyone who just makes it is probably sorted out pretty quick.

The RN is becoming ever more technical; those with the intelligence to cope with that are probably not the types to misbehave... at least not too much :lol:

You mean Nutty and me haven't put you off G yet? :?

Could you imagine yourself dhobeying the G-way as in my current avatar: would you really have wanted to scrub your white duck jumpers like this??? (Incidentally the pic's doctored - he's wearing clothes! Must be a softy St.V inmate!) :lol:

 

[janner]

Never went to Raliegh, February the 2nd 1960, joined at Collingwood and spent a week there getting kit sorted and basic drill. Then went to Mercury as a JRO2 being promoted to JRO1 after 6 months (020860), feck me until I just looked at my certificate of service I thought I'd just been a JRO the whole time.
Training for the first few weeks was hard, lights out at 2200, any talking after that and one of killicks in charge of the mess would come out and clout someone with a stick. It didn't matter who got punished just someone fairly near the partitioned off killicks bit of the mess. Juniors and Adult entries were all in together and treated the same right through the course, exception being rum and late leave. Any excessive noise earnt the whole class the priviledge of doubling up and down the road in the middle of the night wearing PJ's, pussers slippers, Burberry and the old elephants trunk gas mask. Suprising how quickly you learnt the rules. Lived in the Nissen huts for the first 6 weeks then moved up to the Cresent and smaller messes.
I see I went from RO2 to RO2(G) on the 31st December 1963

 

[NozzyNozzer]

Never went to Raliegh, February the 2nd 1960, joined at Collingwood and spent a week there getting kit sorted and basic drill. Then went to Mercury as a JRO2 being promoted to JRO1 after 6 months (020860), feck me until I just looked at my certificate of service I thought I'd just been a JRO the whole time.
Training for the first few weeks was hard, lights out at 2200, any talking after that and one of killicks in charge of the mess would come out and clout someone with a stick. It didn't matter who got punished just someone fairly near the partitioned off killicks bit of the mess. Juniors and Adult entries were all in together and treated the same right through the course, exception being rum and late leave. Any excessive noise earnt the whole class the priviledge of doubling up and down the road in the middle of the night wearing PJ's, pussers slippers, Burberry and the old elephants trunk gas mask. Suprising how quickly you learnt the rules. Lived in the Nissen huts for the first 6 weeks then moved up to the Cresent and smaller messes.
I see I went from RO2 to RO2(G) on the 31st December 1963

I feel happier have read that. So at least the adults suffered too! Did you have to sew you name into you kit in red chain stitch as well, Janner?

 

[Streaky]

I joined at 18 in 1978. We had a couple of Juniors in our class, but they were treated the same as us old boys, except for Cinderella leave.

At Collingwood, the buggers also received a nutty issue at secure every day!