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Ballistic submarines

x4nd

Lantern Swinger
Crabman said:
upallroundlook said:
Gents, Tomohawk is all very well but it ain't ballistic which means it can be shot down plus it has nowhere near the range of a D5 which severely limits a boat's oparea which, in turn, increases it probability of being counter-detected. I agree with an earlier dit that we have no idea what the world will be like in 20-30 years thus having a capability that both keeps us at the Big Boys top table and looks after our interests is not such a bad idea. Keep SSNs doing what they do best ie getting stuck in and SSBNs doing what they do best ie run away and remain undetected - not always as easy as people think.

Just because Tomahawk is non ballistic does not mean that it can be shot down. Whilst not impossible, a cruise missile is in relation to any manned aircraft very small, it is also very fast, and really gets down into the weeds, therefore making defence measures difficult perhaps even extremely difficult. Granted it does not have the range of an ICBM, but I assume it is a lot cheaper meaning more bang for your buck/€/pound etc.

But it CAN be shot down whilst in flight. How much of a deterrent is a deterrent that CAN be neutralised before it reaches its intended target? Its limited range also means you require more boats to cover the same area that one SSBN can cover. Does two or three SSNs come in at a lower cost than one SSBN?

:dwarf:
 
x4nd said:
Crabman said:
upallroundlook said:
Gents, Tomohawk is all very well but it ain't ballistic which means it can be shot down plus it has nowhere near the range of a D5 which severely limits a boat's oparea which, in turn, increases it probability of being counter-detected. I agree with an earlier dit that we have no idea what the world will be like in 20-30 years thus having a capability that both keeps us at the Big Boys top table and looks after our interests is not such a bad idea. Keep SSNs doing what they do best ie getting stuck in and SSBNs doing what they do best ie run away and remain undetected - not always as easy as people think.

Just because Tomahawk is non ballistic does not mean that it can be shot down. Whilst not impossible, a cruise missile is in relation to any manned aircraft very small, it is also very fast, and really gets down into the weeds, therefore making defence measures difficult perhaps even extremely difficult. Granted it does not have the range of an ICBM, but I assume it is a lot cheaper meaning more bang for your buck/€/pound etc.

But it CAN be shot down whilst in flight. How much of a deterrent is a deterrent that CAN be neutralised before it reaches its intended target? Its limited range also means you require more boats to cover the same area that one SSBN can cover. Does two or three SSNs come in at a lower cost than one SSBN?

:dwarf:


I do not know of the equipment required to launch cruise missiles from SSN's but suppose they use the torpedo tubes or some other under casing tubes. These could easily be used from a Deisel Electric, many more boats for your Buck/Euro/Pound

Nutty
 

P2000

Lantern Swinger
Call me a bluff old traditionalist, but TLAM is a fair sized missile, and it's subsonic.

I'm fairly sure it can be shot down.

Either that or come the day of the races, skimmers are going to have a lot of problems.

The thing about Trident is that one boat (very very hard to detect) carries 16 missiles with up to 20 independently manoeuvrable warheads. All moving at warp factor lots, and able to strike just about anywhere in the world. The chances of successfully intercepting just one warhead, let alone an appreciable fraction of them is pretty damn slight.

As a consequence the deterrent value of Trident is enhanced. There is no viable way of preventing the UK retaliating against anyone, anywhere.

TLAM can't deliver that.
 
P2000 said:
Call me a bluff old traditionalist, but TLAM is a fair sized missile, and it's subsonic.

I'm fairly sure it can be shot down.

Either that or come the day of the races, skimmers are going to have a lot of problems.

The thing about Trident is that one boat (very very hard to detect) carries 16 missiles with up to 20 independently manoeuvrable warheads. All moving at warp factor lots, and able to strike just about anywhere in the world. The chances of successfully intercepting just one warhead, let alone an appreciable fraction of them is pretty damn slight.

As a consequence the deterrent value of Trident is enhanced. There is no viable way of preventing the UK retaliating against anyone, anywhere.

TLAM can't deliver that.


I am in full agreement that Trident is an excellent deterrent. The two questions to be asked are.

1. Does the UK need a deterrent?
No I think that need finished 20 years ago.
1. Is it independant?
IMHO "No" we would only launch with the nod from the Septics who would also be launching enought to make our contribution pointless.

They are my thoughts but of course many others think differently.

Nutty
 

x4nd

Lantern Swinger
Nutty said:
I do not know of the equipment required to launch cruise missiles from SSN's but suppose they use the torpedo tubes or some other under casing tubes. These could easily be used from a Deisel Electric, many more boats for your Buck/Euro/Pound

Nutty

Until you start factoring in the cost of the extra support, facilities, training (both at sea and shore) etc, required to support the extra hulls.
 

x4nd

Lantern Swinger
Nutty said:
I am in full agreement that Trident is an excellent deterrent. The two questions to be asked are.

1. Does the UK need a deterrent?
No I think that need finished 20 years ago.
1. Is it independant?
IMHO "No" we would only launch with the nod from the Septics who would also be launching enought to make our contribution pointless.

They are my thoughts but of course many others think differently.

Nutty

Ah Nutty, I believe we’ve been here before.

Yes I believe we need a deterrent and as we can’t predict the future we should plan for success (or failure depending on how you view it).

Irrespective of any maintenance (for want of a better word) agreements etc, the decision to use Trident is still independent.

All this is, of course, IMHO.
 
kgladams said:
Chicogiz said:
Why have we got 4 ballistic sumarine when there is only 1 at sea all the time and the other ones at base we only need about 2. The money could of gone on something else like the new aircraft carrier, what does everyone else think i might be wrong.

I THINK THIS PERSON IS MAD IN THE HEAD THE ONE WHO MADE THIS HAHAHa

First of all are you right in the HEAD?
 
Let’s just face it.............

Trident or some other SSBN base independent nuclear deterrent is here and will be for the foreseeable future

The powers that be have deemed that we need it, and as long as someone else has a nuclear capability, so should we

To do this we need 4 boats in the cycle

That’s the way it is so live with it
 
Plus doesn't TLAM need GPS to get to its target ??

Which is easy to take out or block

Plus you would need a large number of TLAM's to replace just 1 trident missile

and they dont have the range or speed needed
 

x4nd

Lantern Swinger
Anchor_Faced_Jack said:
Plus doesn't TLAM need GPS to get to its target ??

Which is easy to take out or block

Plus you would need a large number of TLAM's to replace just 1 trident missile

and they dont have the range or speed needed

TLAM doesn’t need GPS to get to its target, but without GPS it looses some of its accuracy.

:dwarf:
 

dingerbell

Lantern Swinger
Absolutely essential that we retain and maintain our nuke det. shipmates.Whilst pondering and respecting the different views I've just read I would remind us all that if the biiiiig bang bangs are ever to be launched ,either by us or the yanks,then we are in shit street because the det. has FAILED. As far as tony's/Gordie's heid up georgie boys arse is concerned, remember they fcuckers over there are purely mercenary and we only just finished paying them for the services/alliance in the last war. however the other side of the coin if the ragheids decide to use them then again shit street as the fanaticism involved would lead one to perhaps believe that there is no det. for that.

UP SPIRITS...............SPLICEREEEEEEEEEEERS!!!!
 
4 boats are needed 1 in refit 1 at sea 1 getting ready to go and another. (just in case the one on work up has snags and cant make it after all you cant keep the on patrol bomber out indefinatly.

(just and one of the thousands that were on the 150 odd day patrol)
 
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