AWFP Training proposal.

Karma

War Hero
trehorn said:
While i agree that without a doubt many of the things in there could be done in unit the fact of the matter is in many (not all) cases it isnt happening. One of the reasons this came to light is that some people who have been deployed have not been confident or in some cases had any idea how to do some of the items listed. Not just from my unit but from the whole national AWFP branch.

Trehorn

the various issues you identify are generally gained on the job, so you've come up with the right answer inasmuch as the value of actually doing the job on a running ship. The opportunity would also help give some insight into the RN, although I'd question whether one week would offer a great deal of that.

That said, your training pipeline is far too long, keeping people motivated is an issue. I'm unconvinced that two weeks in Cyp is really justifiable, although I recognise that CMR have recently approved, so it must be a good thing ;)

However, if the fault is that training is not consistent across units then the answer is to reconcile things there, rather than centralise it. If COs are not delivering continuation training to an appropriate standard then we need to start there, rather than compensate for their weaknesses by adding more hurdles.

FWIW intruder and bandit exercises in ships are just as artificial as ashore. I was never a big fan of routinised duty watch training, but in a busy ship alongside there is little opportunity to conduct any duty watch training at anything other than the usual time without interupting other activities. More difficult now when the dockyard partnerships have a financial reason to blame ship staff when they fail to meet the contracted delivery milestones.

In practice the answer is probably to have a closer affiliation with a specific ship, and use the opportunities for weekends as much as possible. I'd argue that a slower drip feed of information and practice in that context is more likely to stick and be second nature when it matters.
 

trehorn2

Lantern Swinger
soontobe said:
There is also the rumour that all members of the RNR will be weapon trained in the near future and deployed on out of branch responsibilities and deployments.

Didn't a SR recently announce on a CIS weekend that CIS ratings would no longer be 518 trained?

I didn't hear it 1st hand but i was told that other SR's were not impressed.
 

trehorn2

Lantern Swinger
TheCISspecialist said:
All sounds pretty good that does Trehorn, except for:

trehorn said:
Year 4 2 weeks acclimatisation training in Cyprus.

Can't agree with this though - what's the point of acclimatisation if you're going to return to the UK after the 2 weeks

I didnt make this up. It was announced at the big bang weekend in Scotland in early October. Safeguard.
 

trehorn2

Lantern Swinger
Karma said:
trehorn said:
While i agree that without a doubt many of the things in there could be done in unit the fact of the matter is in many (not all) cases it isnt happening. One of the reasons this came to light is that some people who have been deployed have not been confident or in some cases had any idea how to do some of the items listed. Not just from my unit but from the whole national AWFP branch.

Trehorn

the various issues you identify are generally gained on the job, so you've come up with the right answer inasmuch as the value of actually doing the job on a running ship. The opportunity would also help give some insight into the RN, although I'd question whether one week would offer a great deal of that.

That said, your training pipeline is far too long, keeping people motivated is an issue. I'm unconvinced that two weeks in Cyp is really justifiable, although I recognise that CMR have recently approved, so it must be a good thing ;)

However, if the fault is that training is not consistent across units then the answer is to reconcile things there, rather than centralise it. If COs are not delivering continuation training to an appropriate standard then we need to start there, rather than compensate for their weaknesses by adding more hurdles.

FWIW intruder and bandit exercises in ships are just as artificial as ashore. I was never a big fan of routinised duty watch training, but in a busy ship alongside there is little opportunity to conduct any duty watch training at anything other than the usual time without interupting other activities. More difficult now when the dockyard partnerships have a financial reason to blame ship staff when they fail to meet the contracted delivery milestones.

In practice the answer is probably to have a closer affiliation with a specific ship, and use the opportunities for weekends as much as possible. I'd argue that a slower drip feed of information and practice in that context is more likely to stick and be second nature when it matters.

Thanks for the first rational, non-sarcastic response to my proposal. One of the main reasons i came up with this is because i have put my name forward for FOST tanker 3 times to have it cancelled at the last minute. The last time alternative training was arranged at very short notice which, while greatly appreciated, was not much use.

By sending ratings in smaller groups there is less chance of the training being cancelled due to insufficient numbers, no SR, No platform. The number of ships in port with working duty watch, UDS etc provides more than enough places to train. Turn up with a task book, give it to the duty SR/killick so they know what you need to do/see during the week. My experience of the RN is that if you show an interest they are happy to give you their time and knowledge.

I agree with the career path being too long. It would be better if the 518 and 547 could be condensed into 1 week, baring in mind that much of the 547 is the same as the 518. Also why can't the BSSC be completed at Raleigh during the 2 weeks initial new entry training. Its always taken a long time to get to trained strength and unfortunately i cant see that changing.
 
Whilst I like the enthusiastic approach and work you have obviously put in to this Trehorn, and well done for doing so, I would agree with some comments that the training is too long and spread out.

I am a great believer in condensing training as much as possible to allow for learning subject that are closely linked together and not spend half of your next session going over what you learned last time. There are also many other benefits to intensive training that I'm not going to bore everyone with.

What about being radical and look at ratings having a mandatory 4-6 week course - subject to the same safeguards as mobilisation - ie it's a requirement not a request/volunteered opportunity which I have gathered on here causes problems for many people.

If you had a more in depth initial training programme with all the basic fundamentals covered then arguably you would be more use to the fleet much sooner, probably have much better trained and motivated staff and then leave more unit evenings and weekends for specialist/role training.

Yes I appreciate there is a massive cost implication to the RN, yes I appreciate it is going to be difficult for some people to get time off work and yes I appreciate that unless the training is regularly maintained there is the opportunity for "use it or lose it", but from what little I have gleaned so far, things aren't so great at the moment anyway.

Just a thought for consideration and views of all.
 

flippineck

Lantern Swinger
How about this as a proposal:

Given that you've all lost the R from you nomenculture how about you adopt RN branch titles such as Seaman Spec, the sub-branch which does gunnery now.

FP is everybody's responsibility and I think you'll find that everyone from cooks to stokers carry it out in the RN.
 

trehorn2

Lantern Swinger
Since there appears to be ZERO opportunity to get to sea at the moment i wont be heard complaining if the RNR want to send me to Cyprus for a couple of weeks a year.

Thanks for some of the input fellas however i would like to stress something one last time.

I am not saying that the trained strength career path for the AWFP should take four years. What i am saying is that we have to undertake a minimum of 12 days ORT per year. The first year is always Raleigh. The second is branch training. In the case of AWFP this means 518/547. We all have to do BSSC so that is (usually) 1st week of year 3. the other week could be anything from first aid to a week at sea. First aid can be done in unit over weekends. We cant seem to get on the RIB courses. If we get on the GPMG course we cant stay in date for them.

Why not spend this week on a ship doing the job. My ORT this year has been a complete waste of time. I would have found 2 weeks on board a ship, even alongside, much more useful.

I 100% agree that it takes far too long to get to trained strength. That is not going to change. What i'm trying to suggest is that as opposed to flogging a dead horse (FOST Tanker), or putting people on ships which do not require AWFP ratings just because they'll take them. why not put them on a ship to do the job they will be expected to do if mobilised. I'm certain that someone who's spent a week doing the job with the RN would be so much better at it than someone who hasn't.
 

soontobe

Midshipman
Recently announced on Big Bang weekend by an SO2 this will be the case with other branches than the AWFP and Logs specialisations being deployed.
 

code_tdy

Midshipman
Everyone who is deployed has to be in date NAPWT so the inference is everyone needs 518. Since more and more have been intelligently grabbed the chances of a compulsory brownie increase daily. I would suggest that everyone gets a 518 in PTP as its better in my opinion to know one end of the weapon from another whilst in a safe environment than have only PDT experience before having to sleep with one
 

trehorn

War Hero
I'm not sure that doing the 518 shows you the difference between one end and the other ;P

Some of the people i've seen with an SA80 i wouldnt trust with a water pistol. :lol:
 

icantfly

Lantern Swinger
flippineck said:
How about this as a proposal:

Given that you've all lost the R from you nomenculture how about you adopt RN branch titles such as Seaman Spec, the sub-branch which does gunnery now.

FP is everybody's responsibility and I think you'll find that everyone from cooks to stokers carry it out in the RN.

How about - given that we've all lost the Rs, perhaps now we can all get promoted as we're now all one big family, instead of having to wait for one killicks' slot across the country every 10 frickin years?!

Please.. :bball:
 

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