ATTITUDES

The_Wonderer

War Hero
I dont entirely get your meaning with that one Nutty, but if you thought I was somehow "having a go" at you - I was'nt.

Sorry if you got that impression

(not the first time my sense of humour has landed me in it)
 
Possibly a similar vein...Heard whilst waiting for my son to come out of school;

"I don't believe they get homework..why should I do homework with them, thats the job of the teacher, if they are not going to teach them they should not do the job"

I could only guess what else they were not responible for where their children where concerned.

:sad1:
 
People with these political views dont get elected because the electorate that agree with them choose not to vote, stating they are "all as bad as each other" and preferring to go to the pub and drip to their mates about it instead. We get the Government and therefore the policies we deserve.
 

geoffg

Lantern Swinger
It is funny isn't it that nowadays if a kid gets hit by a teacher, the parent is at the school in a flash suing etc whereas in my days at school you daren't tell your mum you got the cane due to the doing you would get.
geoff(ers) :nemo:
 
geoffg said:
It is funny isn't it that nowadays if a kid gets hit by a teacher, the parent is at the school in a flash suing etc whereas in my days at school you daren't tell your mum you got the cane due to the doing you would get.
geoff(ers) :nemo:

Ditto! I went to irrational lengths to conceil the fact that I'd been punished for things at school.
 
For those who claim one gets more conservative as the years roll by, I'm afraid that that is a stereotype. I've grown more liberal as my hairline has receeded and the white hairs have proliferated. When I was a Prefect a school I was fairly strict, though if I felt sorry for someone I usually let them off. Nowerdays I would refuse to be a Prefect in the first place!

I share Nutty & Slim's view that there is a real problem with many parents inculcating a culture of disobediance to behavioural rules and legal norms through an unwillingness to actually practice parenting, electing instead to pass the buck anywhere else they can. That is why I believe that transgressing parents ought to be publically punished: perhaps the Pillory, naming & shaming (if this works) or higher direct taxation for parents in work and mulct of benefits for those who rely on the state for their income. Only by a punitive approach that personally deprives the parents of pleasures, etc, are you likely to achieve change. Perhaps we need Detention Centres of delinquent parents and weekly spells of Shotley Routine for them!!! :biggrin:

Can I volunteer to supervise the PM running up and down the stone stairs in Westminster Hall :biggrin:
 

Karma

War Hero
Nutty said:
Is it just me or do I observe a distance in attitudes opening up on various subjects between the regular male posters and the regular female 30 something posters.

IMHO it seems that the ladies appear to take a line that it is not the responsibility of the individual for their actions but that of society, the victims, the Government, Education, Social Services, Employers etc that are to blame for people making poor life style decisions.

Well some pretty broad assumptions and I'd disagree that there is really a gulf as you describe it, there is a camp who tend towards simplistic descriptions of phenomena and a camp who tend towards a more nuanced debate, but I don't think it divides down gender lines.

I think in the example you cite you are comparing two different things. It is quite reasonable to reconcile the view that the individual is responsible for their actions and should be managed as such, with the view that societal influences tend to discourage individual responsibility.

I'd agree that much of what we see in the media, and indeed in many daily interactions, there is a lack of awareness of personal responsibility, but I'd also disagree with the suggestion upthread that it breaks down into individual segments of society; low income/ high expenditure is most visible in the right wing media, but I'm unconvinced of the level of issue in that case.

The social contract does appear to have become very unbalanced, the examples cited tend towards the rearing of children and that is probably where the greatest impact could be should one wish to address the issue. In even recent history many children were not reared by an individual or couple in isolation, but in many cases by a more extended family, perhaps including friends; sharing the load, socialising children from an early age and frequently including grandparents, but not as a primary carer.

The migration to the smaller family unit does seem to have an effect, increasing risk aversion and reducing early socialisation. There was a report by the Childrens Society published today being discussed on Radio 4 this morning at about 0615, finding that increasingly risk averse parenting was leading to poor emotional and societal maturity in mid to late teens, with parents continuing close supervision until, on average, aged 14. That strikes me as insane.
 

Ships_Cat

War Hero
Nutty, when you start threads like "send the buggers back" and "all poofs should be burnt", "scarsers, I fackin ate em I do, thieves the lot of em", what do you really expect? Maybe you're just stirring the pot for a flash, and maybe you're not nearly as bigoted/prejudiced/right of Tebbit as you might sound on these pages but forums are notoriously bad at conveying humour, especially jacks own brand, so if you are in fact green and fluffy and enjoying your dotage in the sun with a glass of bubbly, why not let it come across in your posts more.

I happen to agree with Karma, I don't think you'd find you disagree so much with the 30-somethings, most of us who have served or were around those who do have a sense of personal and collective responsibility. The attitude to crime and punishment has certainly changed, not all for the worse in my opinion, and fings weren't so different in your day, but I think you'd get far less friction if you let people know when you weren't entirely serious, and probably would find more of a concensus if you try to imagine how your posts are perceived by people of slightly differing viewpoints to your own.

Of course Im far more thick skinned and will think no less of you when you tell me where to stick my two pennorth (its jacks way of showing he cares right ;) ), but the modern era of instant communication has brought us all a new challenge which I essentially categorise as "Think before you hit send/post/submit". I try to and dont always succeed, but I try.
 
Nutty said:
Is it just me or do I observe a distance in attitudes opening up on various subjects between the regular male posters and the regular female 30 something posters.

IMHO it seems that the ladies appear to take a line that it is not the responsibility of the individual for their actions but that of society, the victims, the Government, Education, Social Services, Employers etc that are to blame for people making poor life style decisions.

I see the problem being that a many in our population think:

They have numerous RIGHTS
They have no RESPONSIBILITIES
They are never the author or responsible for their own actions
They are entitled to a GOOD job
They do not have to study or work to obtain that job
When they start a job they are experts and do no have anything to learn
They are entitled to exact revenge on any person with whom the do not like or disagree.
Attitude to both co-workers and customers does not matter
Parents have no responsibility for their children
Their children can do no wrong and never lie
No person can discipline their children
Children should never be disciplined
Death of any person is a totally tragedy and all should don sack cloth and ashes
Compensation is a right and ones own actions have no bearing on the matter
Good class housing in a nice area is a right.
I want to be a rich and famous therefore it is unfair if I am not, I do not have to have talent or skill.

Some may have more to add to ths list
Going deep shutting off for attack
Nutty

At the risk of laughter at putting myself in the 30 something camp here goes ...

simply I don't think you can divide things so starkly. I am a sort of liberal and yet would not espouse any of the opinions in your list. I would however say that people need support when things go wrong, encouragement to better their lot in life and attempt to fulfill their potential (not having ads for trash rammed down their throats 24/7).

Hmm

:argue:
 
Always_a_Civvy said:
geoffg said:
It is funny isn't it that nowadays if a kid gets hit by a teacher, the parent is at the school in a flash suing etc whereas in my days at school you daren't tell your mum you got the cane due to the doing you would get.
geoff(ers) :nemo:

Ditto! I went to irrational lengths to conceil the fact that I'd been punished for things at school.

I did tell my mum when the poor quality of the latin homework she had done for me had got me the belt again from the Orcadian Wee Free Lay Preacher who used to try and beat latin into us.
 

pingbosun

Lantern Swinger
G'day all.

I think that somewhere in the middle of the last two pages lies the answer that we are all looking for.

All children aren't all bad, or all good, they are all individuals whether they have been brought up in unfortunate circumstances, with Dad the local tea leaf/drunk and Mum the local bike , or if the have had the fortunate luck of having been brought up in an affluent home by two loving parents, with back up Grandparents and all the Z boxes S boxes or whatever boxes kids all crave for , and are the type of kid who isn't a leader, but whether they are the good, the bad, or the just stay in the middle and see who comes out the winner , then we will join that side :w00t: :w00t: :w00t: :w00t: :w00t: type of kid.

It is no use blaming the education system either, the teachers now have very limited powers as to how they can handle troublesome children, and they have "NO BACK UP", by local government if the unfortunately should be accused of actual bodily contact by some of the unscrupulous kids who have seen his happen on T/V by the kids on the Disney channel, where the kid is always the victor and the teacher, is somewhat thicker than a 10" X 8" post in all the shows that kids all love to see and that they base their life on.

We the adult, sorry "YOU" the adult, I have done my bit, and we were in the very lucky position that our kids both turned out to be well adjusted kids, although Mum meeting me when I was all readies in the Andrew, and until the kids were ready for leaving home to be married, I was mostly away from home, so MUM herself really brought the kids up, so really she is alone is the person to thank for the way they have turned out.

The difficulty arises many times now where the attitude is "Oh it's up to the school to make them do what they want them too", "That's what they did in my day","let the teacher do it that's what they get paid for". We both have to work to pay the mortgage, run both cars, pay the fees for sports, school camps, and the million and one thing that the school expects you to stump up for, not forgetting the new U,Beaut runners twice a years that are desperately needed by the child in question.

Parental guidance is where behavioural problems should be addressed, instead of finding it out from the special needs teacher, or only finding it out when you are summoned to the headmasters office because of the anti social behaviour of your little angel.

Like it or not the ball is at your foot as a parent, but you have to start really early and watch how your child is getting on with other children, so that you can guide them onto the correct way , or the nearest to the way you would like them to be without ruining the child's life by being an overbearing parent, because if you do this then your child will Surely rebel against anything that you suggest.However, if this does not work:

don't tell me about it, they are after all your Bl**dy wild kids :whew: :whew: :whew: :whew: :whew:

pingbosun[tongue is firmly in the cheekhmmmmmm]

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