AT training

[rosinacarley]

We at our unit have recently been in receipt of a quite pompous email about how we will not be able to do AT until we have done our ORT (er what if ORT comes at the end of the year, does that mean no Bisley, Its a Knockout etc??). Then there was a bit of a winge that 22 people from the unit went to Cambria this year (OMG! people who are enthusiastic in the RNR - really should not be allowed!) Then there was some nasty rumour that we would only get one day's pay.
So the point of all this is ...
1. If we only get one days pay are we insured on the second day? On the journey home?
2. Does the RN have an obligation to keep paying you if you are seriously injured on ORT/AT and can not return to your civilian employment - after all you are on duty?
3. My understanding after working with an SLA a few years back - no pay, not under the NDA! Woo hoo!
Any thoughts?

 

[dubaipusser]

We at our unit have recently been in receipt of a quite pompous email about how we will not be able to do AT until we have done our ORT (er what if ORT comes at the end of the year, does that mean no Bisley, Its a Knockout etc??). Then there was a bit of a winge that 22 people from the unit went to Cambria this year (OMG! people who are enthusiastic in the RNR - really should not be allowed!) Then there was some nasty rumour that we would only get one day's pay.
So the point of all this is ...
1. If we only get one days pay are we insured on the second day? On the journey home?
2. Does the RN have an obligation to keep paying you if you are seriously injured on ORT/AT and can not return to your civilian employment - after all you are on duty?
3. My understanding after working with an SLA a few years back - no pay, not under the NDA! Woo hoo!
Any thoughts?

With my 'barrackroom lawyer' hat on (and therefore open to be torn apart by anyone in possession of the the full BR) -
1. If you are only authorised for one day's training (ie only paid for 1 days of a 2 day event) then you are NOT covered by MOD insurance for the second day HOWEVER - if you go away on RNR sanctioned 'training' then the RNR has a legal obligation with regard to your travel to and from the place of training so you WOULD be able to claim whilst travelling to and from.
2. I think they probably DO have an obligation - but their liability would be to pay you at your naval rates of pay not any civilian pay scale that you might be on and you would probably find that they would expect you to mitigate this through your civilian employment sick leave scheme
3. A bit shaky on this one following a few queries at King Alfred (since they were actually inside EXCELLENT) a number of years ago with the prime issue being one of whether KA personnel were officially under the NDA once the drill night finished. I think the consensus came out that you are under the NDA whilst undertaking RNR training which "includes the period you are paid/covered for insurance - ie from leaving home to go to the training until arriving back at home on completion of it. So in the case of paragraph 1, MY interpretation would be that you are paid and insured to go to Cambria, paid and insured for the first day and paid and insured to come back - all the time being under the NDA. If you chose to extend your stay by 1 day (unpaid) you would not be covered by insurance, would not be paid but WOULD still be under the NDA.

Anyone else (better qualified than me) got a different take on this?

 

[trehorn]

i wouldnt say i was better qualified than you - all i can say is that last year we attended an Air show as partly recruitment, partly jolly. Our unit would only pay four people for the two days. Since there were so many who wanted to attend we volunteered to accept only one days pay for two days "work". we had to confirm this in writing hence we were insured but not paid.

Not sure if this is any use?

 

[bunnyjumper]

I didn't do Cambria last year for the same reasons. we were told it wasn't considered naval training and therefore we could go, but wouldn't be paid (and hence it wasn't official). OK pay not important, but unit pride is - unit said no, so we didn't go.

Then they complained that that was the first year we didn't put a team in and wasn't it a shame. :?

Talk about mixed messages. :roll: It's a Knockout is an excellent team building event, but because of the attitude of seniors, we haven't gone for 2 years now.

 

[rosinacarley]

I should very much like to see some kind of test case on this, I think the RN staff at RNR units make it up as they go along. I remember have a long conversation with the SLA (a naval barrister) and the outcome was no pay, not under the NDA.

However, am not volunteering to be court martialled just to find out!

 

[hammockhead]

The Naval Discipline Act makes no reference to pay:

"(3) Any officer or rating of any of the naval reserve forces is subject to this Act while-

(a) in permanent service on call out under any provision of the Reserve Forces Act 1980, the Reserve Forces Act 1996 or any other call-out obligations of an officer;
(b) in full-time service under a commitment entered into under section 24 of the Reserve Forces Act 1996;
(c) undertaking any training or duty (whether in pursuance of an obligation or not); or
(d) serving on the permanent staff of the Royal Fleet Reserve or the Royal Naval Reserve. "

 

[dubaipusser]

I should very much like to see some kind of test case on this, I think the RN staff at RNR units make it up as they go along. I remember have a long conversation with the SLA (a naval barrister) and the outcome was no pay, not under the NDA.

However, am not volunteering to be court martialled just to find out!

Sounds like a job for CMR Staff to drill down into the BRs and come up with a definitive statement that can be 'shared' with the RN Staff at RNR units.

Other definitive statements could cover
a) Bounty entitlement (especially for those Mobilised and on FTRS),
b) Overseas Allowances/Subsistence for those sent abroad on training etc
c) Travel policy (along the lines of the recent FLEET travel policy document)

There must be a lot more areas of 'sheer confusion/imbuggerance' that could do with a bit of plain English 'daylight'

 

[rosinacarley]

The Naval Discipline Act makes no reference to pay:

"(3) Any officer or rating of any of the naval reserve forces is subject to this Act while-

(a) in permanent service on call out under any provision of the Reserve Forces Act 1980, the Reserve Forces Act 1996 or any other call-out obligations of an officer;
(b) in full-time service under a commitment entered into under section 24 of the Reserve Forces Act 1996;
(c) undertaking any training or duty (whether in pursuance of an obligation or not); or
(d) serving on the permanent staff of the Royal Fleet Reserve or the Royal Naval Reserve. "

That's really interesting, but I think it is a bit of a cop out!

 

[McHammock]

Rosinacarley,
Where's the cop out ? Looks pretty black & white to me. NDA applies, whether you get paid for 1 day of a weekend or both.
The problem, as usual, seems to be different units saying different things about pay.
If they want us to do the "jolly" weekends, recruiting days etc then we should get paid for all of it.
However, if you want to do "proper" AT (i.e. proper pussers authorised AT as per the JSP), then we only have (or should I say had, the last time I looked) an allowance of 2 days pay. This does not stop you doing a 5 day (or more) AT course, but you'll only get paid for 2. However you will be under the NDA for the whole time as it is authorised training.

 

[Dangermouse]

You do not have an 'allowance' of 2 days AT pay.
Pay for AT is at CO's discretion. See BR60A:

"0616. Adventurous Training (AT).

1. The amount of AT conducted by any individual is at the discretion of the RNR Unit Commanding Officer who will decide whether such training should be paid or unpaid. However, a maximum of 2.5 days AT per annum may be allowed to accrue for Bounty qualification purposes. Paid AT in excess of 5 days per annum is subject to the prior approval of DNRes {sic}."

As regards 'unpaid' training, BR60A also refers (on same page too):

"0614. Unpaid Training.

1. RNR officers and ratings are permitted to carry out training without pay if they wish to do so. Although, as the term implies, there is no entitlement to any pay or allowances, reservists injured in the course of Unpaid Training remain entitled to Disablement Allowance (see Article 0524) and may be allowed to travel at public expense or in Service transport."

There is a form of application to undertake unpaid training at Annex 6C which states that you are subject to NDA etc.

 

[dubaipusser]

You do not have an 'allowance' of 2 days AT pay.
Pay for AT is at CO's discretion. See BR60A:

"0616. Adventurous Training (AT).

1. The amount of AT conducted by any individual is at the discretion of the RNR Unit Commanding Officer who will decide whether such training should be paid or unpaid. However, a maximum of 2.5 days AT per annum may be allowed to accrue for Bounty qualification purposes. Paid AT in excess of 5 days per annum is subject to the prior approval of DNRes {sic}."

As regards 'unpaid' training, BR60A also refers (on same page too):

"0614. Unpaid Training.

1. RNR officers and ratings are permitted to carry out training without pay if they wish to do so. Although, as the term implies, there is no entitlement to any pay or allowances, reservists injured in the course of Unpaid Training remain entitled to Disablement Allowance (see Article 0524) and may be allowed to travel at public expense ir in Service transport."

There is a form of application to undertake unpaid training at Annex 6C which states that you are subject to NDA etc.

Excellent DM - VMT. I knew someone would have access to the right BR - now just need to make sure that these facts get in front of all the appropriate staff at the RTCs

 

[rosinacarley]

McHammock
The cop out is that I do not really believe that they can ask you to be under the NDA without paying you, how can that hold up in a court of law?

 

[McHammock]

Rosincarley
NDA has never refererred to "paid" training, just training.
DM's post refers to undertaking unpaid training but doesn't mention NDA, only covered for injury.

However, agree with you that court of law may see things differently - fancy filling in COMMARRES next time you're on unpaid training ?

DM
Thanks also, need to (re) read BR60 one of these days.

 

[rosinacarley]

Ooh would so love to do that! Raised just this point at Div Mtgs at end of term. I have never been afraid to speak my mind, it is just getting some numpty from COMMARRES to listen. I dripped all over the WO at WUA and never heard anything back. I guess they will just have to wait until someone from our unit breaks something or does something under the NDA when on training and not being paid, and then I will swoop in with my new legal skills and get them oodles of compensation!

That is sooo not going to happen is it!!! Still a girl can but dream!

 

[rosinacarley]

Rosincarley
NDA has never refererred to "paid" training, just training.

The bit of the NDA you are referring to ... is it specifically for RNR?

 

[MasterChief]

----- IT IS FAIRLY BLACK AND WHITE , IF YOU ARE UNDERTAKING TRAINING PAID OR NOT YOU ARE UNDERTHE NDA ... FULL STOP....... AND SUBJECT TO THE DISCIPLINES CONTAINED WITHIN IT AND SO YOU SHOULD BE, AFTER ALL WE ARE A DISCIPLINED MILITARY SERVICE NOT A SOCIAL CLUB OR YOUTH CLUB .
IF INDIVIDUALS DO NOT WISH TO BE UNDER THE NDA THEY CAN ALWAYS RESIGN

 

[rosinacarley]

----- IT IS FAIRLY BLACK AND WHITE , IF YOU ARE UNDERTAKING TRAINING PAID OR NOT YOU ARE UNDERTHE NDA ... FULL STOP....... AND SUBJECT TO THE DISCIPLINES CONTAINED WITHIN IT AND SO YOU SHOULD BE, AFTER ALL WE ARE A DISCIPLINED MILITARY SERVICE NOT A SOCIAL CLUB OR YOUTH CLUB .
IF INDIVIDUALS DO NOT WISH TO BE UNDER THE NDA THEY CAN ALWAYS RESIGN

There is no need to shout, it is rude!

I take your point, I have just celebrated being in the RNR for 23 years. However, I think you will find the thread was rhetorical, after all I am hardly going to slap COMARES when on unpaid training am I? However, it is still an interested legal point, which I would very much like to see tested in summary trial or CM. Although of course, not mine.

 

[imom1406]

I would have thought this whole thread has to do with contract law rather than NDA, and what you contract with MOD has in it. Particularly about basic duty of care.

Also if there is custom and practice precedent!

But then again I am a civvy and have been for 18 years, what would i know?

 

[rosinacarley]

Also if there is custom and practice precedent!

That is the whole point, worth testing in a court of law!

 

[imom1406]

Also if there is custom and practice precedent!

That is the whole point, worth testing in a court of law!

Trouble is finding someone to do it and someone to pay for it!