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Arrse: US Humbled in Bloody Sangin

Ninja_Stoker

War Hero
Moderator
An interesting thread over on Arrse regarding the US take-over in Sangin: http://www.arrse.co.uk/afghanistan/154296-us-humbled-bloody-sangin.html

Arrse said:
In first 6weeks alone they lost more men than we did in 6 months.

24 killed, 85 wounded c. 15% of their strength.

Obviously no-one would wish them a dangerous tour, but it is nonetheless interesting to read the US armchair Generals on Wikileaks criticising the UK effort previously.

Just a shame it's not the critics who are taking the hits rather than the troops.
 

broadside

War Hero
They would only come back and say that the losses are as a result of the US forces adopting a more robust posture or similar bullsh1t

The sad fact is that there are losses full-stop!
 

Ninja_Stoker

War Hero
Moderator
Doubtless tactics will evolve to gain the initiative, but clearly sheer weight of numbers is not the entire solution.

Even senior US soldiers are now winding their necks in & admitting the UK achievements were underplayed & observing the only safe ground is bit you are currently stood upon.

Perhaps they haven't watched Hill 60 yet or have forgotten about the Tunnel Rats.
 

finknottle

Banned
I am sure it was not the US soldiers on the ground who were gobbing off about our troops. Those losses are very bad and they have my utmost sympathy.
 
G

guestm

Guest
It probably has more to do with them standing around and crying like minges when their oppos get shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auJZqno8ydI

In all seriousness though, sheer weight of numbers + a more aggressive posture + a lack of awareness of the issues in that particularly nasty 4 miles = more casualties.

It would appear the truth of Helmand is finally being driven into the face of the US heirarchy with some considerable force.
 

timex

Lantern Swinger
Surprising how they dismissed the UK's Counter terrorist skills we'd gained the hard way, and sadly learned all the lessons we did.
 
Snag is with guerrilla --insurgent etc etc warfare is that the
enemy doesn't wear a uniform --so the innnocents are anyone killed with out weapon or bomb etc. The usual practice being when theres a casualty
in the ''insurgent '' ranks the first thing the survivors do is to remove his
weaponry before retreating into obscurity .

So the only way is to do carpet bombing and selective delivery of
anti personnel weaponry---------------the innocents --if any --possibly
should have removed them selves prior to any exchanges of fire.

Bombs and bullets etc ain't selective

G
 
G

guestm

Guest
finknottle said:
Women and children?

Whilst there will undoubtedly be a number of civilian casualties anywhere as a consequence of conflict. Sangin is as hostile a place as you are likely to find. It is not the 35k + population, bustling bazaar it once was. It's population is now significantly lower and is a hotbed of insurgent activity. The locals come and go when fighting starts and stops. They're not stupid.

To say that there have been a lot of innocent casualties in Sangin is probably wide of the mark. Most innocents have done one and upped sticks and only come back for the bazaar when it's safe to do so.

"I'd tell anyone now don't come here because I'd never want to come here again," one soldier told me this summer at a Sangin patrol base hemmed in by all sides by insurgents.
"This place is different to anywhere else; really it's a Taliban stronghold," he added.
The town is likely to remain a Taliban redoubt because it always has been and there is little desire, or resources, to tackle Sangin's problems. The centre for the narcotics trade and a hub for warring tribes the complexities of Sangin's problems are deep.
But the town is also the testing ground for the Taliban where an average of 400 external fighters come each year to "earn their stripes" and the fighting is of an intensity not found anywhere else in Helmand. On average there are 15 small arms fire contacts a day and 15 IEDs found a week.
No wonder then that troops nicknamed Sangin the "bastard child of Helmand" or "Afghanistan's Fallujah".
 

finknottle

Banned
I don't think it would be unfair to say that the Yanks take much less care where they drop their ordinance compared to the Brits, and yes Helmand is a hotbed of insurgents, it would be when they are predominantly Pashtun.


Greenie, carpet bombing!
 
G

guestm

Guest
finknottle said:
I don't think it would be unfair to say that the Yanks take much less care where they drop their ordinance compared to the Brits, and yes Helmand is a hotbed of insurgents, it would be when they are predominantly Pashtun.


Greenie, carpet bombing!

I was referring to Sangin specifically, not Helmand.

In my experience I would say that they take the same amount of care as anyone. Major Iraq A10 cock-ups aside, the protocols for delivering CAS in Afghanistan are near as damn it the same whatever nationality. Through sheer volume of ordnance dropped there is obviously going to be a higher degree of error. More US assets provide CAS, hence they drop more bombs, ergo the greater the chance of them fragging a kid.
 

finknottle

Banned
SJRM_RN said:
finknottle said:
I don't think it would be unfair to say that the Yanks take much less care where they drop their ordinance compared to the Brits, and yes Helmand is a hotbed of insurgents, it would be when they are predominantly Pashtun.

Sangin is not predominately Pashtun though, as MLP says, it's a proving ground for anyone who wants to join the 'war' on the infidel. Anecdotal evidence suggests that accents from all over can be heard in and around the place, and that includes some regional British accents (not from UK forces personnel either)!

Yes it is.

This is nothing to do with keeping our streets safe its about oil and gas from from the massive Turkmenistan fields which will be piped through Helmand Province to Pakistan and India.
 
G

guestm

Guest
finknottle said:
SJRM_RN said:
finknottle said:
I don't think it would be unfair to say that the Yanks take much less care where they drop their ordinance compared to the Brits, and yes Helmand is a hotbed of insurgents, it would be when they are predominantly Pashtun.

Sangin is not predominately Pashtun though, as MLP says, it's a proving ground for anyone who wants to join the 'war' on the infidel. Anecdotal evidence suggests that accents from all over can be heard in and around the place, and that includes some regional British accents (not from UK forces personnel either)!

Yes it is.

This is nothing to do with keeping our streets safe its about oil and gas from from the massive Turkmenistan fields which will be piped through Helmand Province to Pakistan and India.

Historically yes but not anymore, it's a mishmash of anyone who fancies a scrap.

And whilst I always genuinely enjoy debating with you Fink, the oil comment doesn't even merit a riposte.
 

finknottle

Banned
Montigny-La-Palisse said:
finknottle said:
SJRM_RN said:
finknottle said:
I don't think it would be unfair to say that the Yanks take much less care where they drop their ordinance compared to the Brits, and yes Helmand is a hotbed of insurgents, it would be when they are predominantly Pashtun.

Sangin is not predominately Pashtun though, as MLP says, it's a proving ground for anyone who wants to join the 'war' on the infidel. Anecdotal evidence suggests that accents from all over can be heard in and around the place, and that includes some regional British accents (not from UK forces personnel either)!

Yes it is.

This is nothing to do with keeping our streets safe its about oil and gas from from the massive Turkmenistan fields which will be piped through Helmand Province to Pakistan and India.

Historically yes but not anymore, it's a mishmash of anyone who fancies a scrap.

And whilst I always genuinely enjoy debating with you Fink, the oil comment doesn't even merit a riposte.

None required MLP just dropped it in as a reminder to illustrate that the reason for our troops being there now has an addendum.
 

finknottle

Banned
SJRM_RN said:
finknottle said:
Montigny-La-Palisse said:
finknottle said:
SJRM_RN said:
finknottle said:
I don't think it would be unfair to say that the Yanks take much less care where they drop their ordinance compared to the Brits, and yes Helmand is a hotbed of insurgents, it would be when they are predominantly Pashtun.

Sangin is not predominately Pashtun though, as MLP says, it's a proving ground for anyone who wants to join the 'war' on the infidel. Anecdotal evidence suggests that accents from all over can be heard in and around the place, and that includes some regional British accents (not from UK forces personnel either)!

Yes it is.

This is nothing to do with keeping our streets safe its about oil and gas from from the massive Turkmenistan fields which will be piped through Helmand Province to Pakistan and India.

Historically yes but not anymore, it's a mishmash of anyone who fancies a scrap.

And whilst I always genuinely enjoy debating with you Fink, the oil comment doesn't even merit a riposte.

None required MLP just dropped it in as a reminder to illustrate that the reason for our troops being there now has an addendum.

So, by your rationale, why aren't US/UK/NATO troops currently in Pakistan or India then? Surely if this were the case then we should be securing the territory in these countries too. :dontknow:

Obvious really, these two countries will benefit and are willing partners in this particular segment of the great game. Pakistan signed up to the deal in 2002.
 
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