Army Commandos

Floppyjocky

Badgeman
cdox said:
A question for floppy jocky. Firstly i would like to say thanks for bringing this topic up for debate. I find the feedback intresting from the responses but am intrested why you think this is, quote" Elitism at its worst".

Good question. It was purely a personal point of view, not about an organisation but based on some of the individual quotes in the article. When any RM/Army banter has died down I think you will find that most guys have a very healthy, and deserved respect for the Royal Marines, but from my point of view (and that's all it is) that same respect should be afforded to frontline infantry units that have been in and out of action on a very regular basis, doing some sterling work. Yes there are many differences, training and equipment is just two, but for individuals to dismiss the idea out of hand is slightly blinkered. I suppose a lot of my thinking stems from the fact I work in a completely joint environment and I am one of the "believers" that we can do more together.

I'm not sure I've really answered the question but having just driven 800 miles I'm hanging out. I may return to edit !
 

ThePunisher

Lantern Swinger
Now that a Crab has the top job, how long until we see the RAF Servicing Commandos being re-formed?
Seriously, what a lot of people seem to forget is that the bog-standard British infantry soldier is tougher and better trained(if not equipped)than 95% of the rest of the world's so-called "elite" units. But I suspect that this is the Government trying to get Marines "on the cheap", rather than simply expanding the RMC. Or, indeed, reforming the Army Commandos.
A bit like replacing real police officers with Tackleberries(PSO'S).
 

SILVER_FOX

War Hero
I vaguely recall on more than one occasion hearing about the Army's interest in absorbing the Royals into their fold. Since they haven't been able to do this so far the cynic in me suspects this is the first step in tackling the issue from another angle.
 

avoiding_action

Lantern Swinger
With Viking well and truely established and the training unit at Bovington surely there is a lot the Pongo's and Royal can teach each other?

After all aren't we rather new to this manoeuvre warfare and the flexibility Viking brings?
 

stripey588

Midshipman
Hi, newby to the Rum Ration site here,

For my 2 penneth worth, my first reaction was "why on earth"?

But after reading some of the posts on here, it does seem feasable.

As long as the new cdo unit have all done the AACC, and passed it, they will be accepted. They will recieve a lot of stick at first, but a sense of humour is required to wear the green lid. Some may take longer than others to accept the new CDO unit.

i worked with the AACC course during training, and they didn't half get some stick during their training, and unfortunatley, i didnt get my green lid, but i have rarely heard anything said about those who are attached to the RM after pasing the AACC course.

The very reason for the AACC course is so that those who work closley with the RM is that they are trained to the same procedures, methods, and fitness as the RM.

I just hope that whoever gives the go ahead realises this, and dosent try to shoehorn them in the backdoor, by giving the the RM title without the training.

like i said, newby here and first post, so awaits incoming.

yours aye

jason

http://www.savedutchy.co.uk/
 
The 16 Air Assault Bde in Afghanistan, at the moment, has a Bde strength but only one Para Infantry unit.

3 Cdo Bde will also operate the same way with 42 Cdo being the infantry element of the Cdo Bde but a pongo infantry unit as an add on to do jobs more to the rear.

You can add as many infantry units to the Bde, fine, but they may not be up to the job of the harder tasks.i.e get you arse up that hill with all that kit on your back.

5 Bde down South were shite.

But I digress, you can be a Commando just pass the Commando Cse.

To put a whole Btn thru this course is now impossible, the sausage factory is not geared to meet this demand at such short notice.

Also having been on the All Arms Team it would take on average 10 Btn's worth of men to pass the course to fill the boots of one Btn.

The Corps attracts fitter guys who want to be infantry where most of the Army infantry is made up of guys who have not met standards to have an SQ.

The Corps has a reverse policy where ******'s get sent to SQ jobs.

Chris
 
Deeps said:
Not ''swinging the lamp'' too much lads but my sqn went on telic 1 with 3 CDO , we are Cavalry (QDG) and after two weeks of constant enemy contact the Brigadier(JIM [email protected]@@@N ) gave us all the commando dagger for our combats . We didnt carry out AACC or anything but as a mark of respect it was nice to get that presented . As a full on pongo the best unit i have every worked with was the Royal marines . Non of your ''ego'' para crap , the royals looked upon us as equals and for that they get my upmost respect . cheers it was hoofing!
I understand this comment.

I trained many guys who had been para trained and alternated between para and Marines never wanting to go back to hat land as they put it.


They prefered working with the Corps as we did not have that crap hat fixation.

If you ain't Para Regt you can have a Red beret and wings but you are **** all to them.

Also I may add, that some of the posters on this site may have got near to a NAAFI queue as their only real service experience.


Chris
 
stripey588 said:
Hi, newby to the Rum Ration site here,

For my 2 penneth worth, my first reaction was "why on earth"?

But after reading some of the posts on here, it does seem feasable.

As long as the new cdo unit have all done the AACC, and passed it, they will be accepted. They will recieve a lot of stick at first, but a sense of humour is required to wear the green lid. Some may take longer than others to accept the new CDO unit.

i worked with the AACC course during training, and they didn't half get some stick during their training, and unfortunatley, i didnt get my green lid, but i have rarely heard anything said about those who are attached to the RM after pasing the AACC course.

The very reason for the AACC course is so that those who work closley with the RM is that they are trained to the same procedures, methods, and fitness as the RM.

I just hope that whoever gives the go ahead realises this, and dosent try to shoehorn them in the backdoor, by giving the the RM title without the training.

like i said, newby here and first post, so awaits incoming.

yours aye

jason

http://www.savedutchy.co.uk/
Spoken like a true civvy.

Chris
 

stripey588

Midshipman
chris,

i never said i was serving, and i am indeed a civilian.

i wrapped at week 27.

and i preferred DUTCHYS to the NAAFI.

i did say it was my 2 penneth worth.

brainfarts seem to be my speciallity at the moment.

yours aye

jason

www.savedutchy.co.uk
 

Rifleman

Newbie
It has been a while since I left the Regiment, but once a Rifleman always a rifleman and all that.

"there will always be THEM and US"

Well of course there will. The last thing we want is you Booties absorbing a karge chunk of our Regiment. I am sure you will find our lads up for some competition.

I understand RM suspicion, after all we have our own suspicions. Nonetheless it is on the cards and we can either approach it positively and consequently give it the chance to work, or we can be negative in which case both RM and The Rifles miss out on an opportunity. Failure isn't a postive outcome, it is just failure.

If you do nothing else I'd like you to think about this. RM has its own history and traditions and those play a large part in making you what you are, influencing the way you think and how you go about doing your job. I presume you don't want those interfered with too much?

Any of you who have spent any length of time with Infantry units will know that they differ greatly in terms of culture, because thier histories and traditions are diverse.

So take a look at what you are getting access to.

The Rifles, or its predecessors, have always been a regiment which pioneers new roles. It was born to exploit the rifle, it became the first ever mechanised infantry unit and the first glider borne infantry unit, amongst many other firsts. Unlike other regiments it has twice seen the writing on the wall, and instead of being dragged kicking and screaming into amalgamation, it has volunteered for it. If I was to single out one thing about the Regimental ethos it is its enthusiasm for developing new skills. Now that can't be bad considering what is being discussed.

Lets be clear. Riflemen do not want to be Marines. If they did they would have joined the Corps. They don't want to wear your Green Beret, they have their own Rifle Green Beret. Really all you need worry about is whether they are fit for role. I am not worried about that, whatever the role they will either be or get fit for it just as they have always stepped up to the mark in the past.

What we do need to know is exactly what role they will have, because until that is clear who knows whether 1 Rifles will become the dumping ground for the poorest Riflemen or the battalion all of the top guys aspire to. That ball is largely in your court.

I hope it all work and works well. My worry is that if it does not it will reflect badly on both parties
 

Warm

Midshipman
Been reading this thread with interest, sounds a lot like shoehorning digs through a vice to squeeze out some spare cash and fill needs in a band-aid fashion. This kind of integration doesnt seem like a terribly viable LONG TERM option, one would think it more intelligent (not to suggest defence decisions are intelligent or anything), to think about some ways to streamline the Army into its roles, and expand the RM to the desired state.

We're pursuing a vaguely similar scheme here (Aus), whereby our Para battalion is reassigning as a Mechanised Infantry battalion. Costs half as much as fitting up a new battalion, but its stripped all our Reserve units (TA) of light armour, and the poor 'hats' dont get to jump out of aeroplanes or heap shit on those without soft felt covers anymore. If I ever want a laugh, I just think of all our para's retraining to drive and crew M113's and LAV's.
 

Rifleman

Newbie
Warm
I'd have to say that it is impossible to tell whether it is a good idea or not, since nobody seems to know what role the Rifles would have.

If it is babysitting bergens for bootnecks then it will be an unpopular job and 1 Rifles will be an unpopular posting, it doesn't take the brains of an archbishop to know what effect that will have.

If it is to provide an additional Commando in the traditional RM sense that won't work either in my opinion. The booties are quite right to protect their territory and the guys in 1 Rifles will be expected to spend time in other Rifles battalions with mechanised and traditional light infantry roles. Becoming booties is not condusive to this.

However, there are potentially roles which are challenging and suited to light infantry but it is down to the RM headshed to determine what role will enhance the CDO capability and work for the supporting infantry battalion.

Like I said, it is on the cards. Nobody gains from failure. Personally I think there is nothing worse than negativity (I thought is was us poms who were supposed to be the whingers anyway?), but I have worked with bootnecks in the past and (unlike paras) I have found them to be forward thinking and generally prepared to judge other on performance. So for my part my only concern is that the right role is found and it needs to be one which works for everyone.
 

nomadcelt

Midshipman
NZ_Bootneck said:
If you want to be a commando join the RM or rebadge into unit that can do the AACC. Bloody bright sparks at MOD have no clues. The more things change the more they stay the same.
1RIFLES members have been going through AACC for the last three or four intakes. The last course had 12 of which 10 passed. The CO is mega-keen to get his guys Cdo trained.

Just to keep this on the straight and narrow, however, doing the Cdo course does not make you as fit / suitable as RM. I'm Army and would say that the AACC only prepares you for basic patrolling duties (as well as the physical robustness). Having seen RM go through basic, their fitness is far higher than basic infantry. Their infantry skills, however........much the same. Of course, continuation training in unit may vary.
 

Bergen

ADC
Rifleman said:
It has been a while since I left the Regiment, but once a Rifleman always a rifleman and all that.

"there will always be THEM and US"

Well of course there will. The last thing we want is you Booties absorbing a karge chunk of our Regiment. I am sure you will find our lads up for some competition.

I understand RM suspicion, after all we have our own suspicions. Nonetheless it is on the cards and we can either approach it positively and consequently give it the chance to work, or we can be negative in which case both RM and The Rifles miss out on an opportunity. Failure isn't a postive outcome, it is just failure.

If you do nothing else I'd like you to think about this. RM has its own history and traditions and those play a large part in making you what you are, influencing the way you think and how you go about doing your job. I presume you don't want those interfered with too much?

Any of you who have spent any length of time with Infantry units will know that they differ greatly in terms of culture, because thier histories and traditions are diverse.

So take a look at what you are getting access to.

The Rifles, or its predecessors, have always been a regiment which pioneers new roles. It was born to exploit the rifle, it became the first ever mechanised infantry unit and the first glider borne infantry unit, amongst many other firsts. Unlike other regiments it has twice seen the writing on the wall, and instead of being dragged kicking and screaming into amalgamation, it has volunteered for it. If I was to single out one thing about the Regimental ethos it is its enthusiasm for developing new skills. Now that can't be bad considering what is being discussed.

Lets be clear. Riflemen do not want to be Marines. If they did they would have joined the Corps. They don't want to wear your Green Beret, they have their own Rifle Green Beret. Really all you need worry about is whether they are fit for role. I am not worried about that, whatever the role they will either be or get fit for it just as they have always stepped up to the mark in the past.

What we do need to know is exactly what role they will have, because until that is clear who knows whether 1 Rifles will become the dumping ground for the poorest Riflemen or the battalion all of the top guys aspire to. That ball is largely in your court.

I hope it all work and works well. My worry is that if it does not it will reflect badly on both parties
Strange that Major General R.D. Grist O.B.E. the Colonel of the Glosters didn't quite see it this way when he said in public; "The amalgamation of the Regiment was an act of vandalism proposed by the Army Board and executed by the Government. I have little doubt that it will be regretted in the future." Sounds like kicking and screaming to me.

There are a couple of threads running on this subject, but the basic situation seems to be an infantry regiment that had been in a state of flux for over a decade, comprising elements from just about every county regiment under the sun. The Duke of Edinburgh's Amalgamated Glider Regiment of Wiltshire, Dorset, Avon, Parts of Essex and Just a Smidge of Gloucester Light Infantillery and Yeomanry Dragoons now casting about for a role. In this case 4 MU seems to be the silver bullet being offered up by the politicians and MOD but it seems fairly obvious that they are not going to be offered a commando role or anything approaching it.

Royal 6 sums it up pretty well on the other thread when he says that The Corps would find it difficult to operate without some of the army attached units such as 29 Commando, 59 RE, Logs etc. but 4 MU would be a temporary fix that The Corps could live without.

The real problem here is a government that spends less of GDP on Defence than any government since Neville Chamberlain and yet has committed British forces to more operational tasks than can be adequately covered. The burden will fall increasingly on the Royal Marines and someone needs to wake up pretty quickly and realise that The Corps needs another RM Commando and that it will take a couple of years minimum to recruit and train, given the money and resources to do so. PW1 comments hit the nail on the head especially his comment about 5th Infantry Brigade.

Royal is pretty accepting of army support and the average marine has few of the ego problems of Les Paras but if 4 MU were attached to 3 Cdo Brigade then they would inevitably be seen as second string and used accordingly.

RM
 

Wessex_Man

Midshipman
My understanding is that all members of the Cdo roled Rifles battalion will be commando trained - simple. This will take a little time, but not as much as some seem to imagine. It's already a "project in progress", and 80%+ of candidates are getting through AACC.

The whole point of the Infantry restructuring is to make more troops available for ops by giving each battalion of the new "big regiments" specific roles (light, mech, armoured) in which they'll specialise; under the traditional regimental system, when most battalions re-roled every 4 years, about 25% of the Infantry was unavailable for ops at any given time due to the continual need for re-roling training etc.. The Royal Australian Regt has operated a "big regt/ specialist battalion" system for some time, and it seems to work well for them: although, of course, their commando roled battalion operates rather like the SFSG, rather than as part of a separate amphibious corps.

Now, realistically, how likely is it that the "fat knackers", poorly motivated, or aged time servers will put themselves forward for commando training? Also, are the "powers that be" in the Rifles likely to want to risk massive embarrassment, humiliation, "Royal finger pointing" etc because loads of their blokes fail AACC? It is, therefore, likely that Rifles candidates opting to serve in 1st Battalion will be young Riflemen, JNCOs, and officers who have a few years service, have seen the opportunity available, and volunteer for it with a realistic appreciation of what's required.

They are likely to be fit, motivated, and generally switched-on. They will not be raw recruits starting from scratch - even the least experienced will have undergone 24 weeks Infantry training (not the same as the RM 32 weeks full fattybombatty, but not insignificant either: as someone else has quite rightly noted, your bog standard Brit infanteer is a lot better trained than most other infantrymen, no matter what some RM think!), and most will have done far more than this, incl operational experience.

I think this represents a great opportunity for all concerned, and with the right attitude from all parties, given time, it will work very well to mutual advantage, not least in promoting much needed "jointery".

Final note - I'm a bit tired of the constant digs at 5 Bde "down South". As stated elsewhere, it was a victim of "ad hockery", and was unprepared for war. But, some ought to consider that 2 Para was from 5 Bde - removed and attached to 3 Cdo in April '82. So 5 Bde went to war having lost its only truly fit for role battalion - this added considerably to the organisational confusion. Despite all the problems, 2 SG went direct from public duties and fought & won a nasty little battle (against predominantly regular troops - marines, in the main - in well prepared positions) on Tumbledown. And what of the Gherkins? Many cried tears of frustration when the Argentinians surrendered, thus depriving them of their chance to "close with the enemy": no shortage of motivation there!

There was nothing much wrong, all things considered, with the troops of 5 Bde; a lot was wrong with C3, formation readiness (eg Bde command had never even had the opportunity to conduct proper TEWTs, let alone anything else!), and clarity of thinking about their mission. But don't, please, persist in knocking the soldiers - in the main, they "done good", and frankly a lot of the derisory comments are a disgrace to the memory of those who died, and show a lack of appreciation of just how handicapped 5 Bde was.

Wessex_Man.
 

NZ_Bootneck

War Hero
[quote="Wessex_ Final note - I'm a bit tired of the constant digs at 5 Bde "down South".
Wessex_Man.[/quote]
Stop banging on about it in different threads then, obvious when you think about it :roll:
 
NZ_Bootneck said:
[quote="Wessex_ Final note - I'm a bit tired of the constant digs at 5 Bde "down South".
Wessex_Man.
Stop banging on about it in different threads then, obvious when you think about it :roll:[/quote]

Well said NZ, it is getting a little tiresome isn't it.
 
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