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Armour for Vikings after Royal Marine's death


War Hero
Seadog said:
It may be easier to bin/lock this entire bad natured thread than edit and selectively delete. If you can't play nice in Current Affairs, the serious thread, go somewhere else.

I don't agree with much of Finknottle's output either but he has a point. Ill informed stuff such as;

I can remember Bandy stamping his foot and demanding 12 45's or else… Told to wind his neck in or no Peerage and Viola! Neck wound in!

does not add value because it is strategic sailor (that's armchair admiral) fiction. Who told him OS? When? How did you manage to witness this encounter? Why would JB be in line for a peerage when other 1SLs don't qualify by dint of being 1SL? (AW didn't).

Purple Twiglet has an idea of how procurement works and doesn't. Those who don't know, please ask questions rather than spread ignorance.


Tout the party line elswhere, I ain't buying…

So Band didn't say at a meeting that if he didn't get another £1 Billion and if cuts 'turned the Fleet into the Belgian Navy, I'm gone'?

And Band didn't come back from his showdown moment with the Minster praising him for his wonderful decision to give him the two carriers that were already promised… but not the 12 45's Band had been saying he needed?

"This is a significant decision to invest in the future, to be able to deliver air power around the world. I am entirely content that the country will get the navy it deserves; a powerful navy for the future; which is entirely right because we are a large player on the world scene."

Major change of tune that!

And no big gong? Was a time when Band was being tipped as the next CDS, not now, and CDS gets a big shiny Baron gong when they retire.


War Hero
And no big gong? Was a time when Band was being tipped as the next CDS,

So why not, if as you seem to say, he's wound his neck in? Ermine is for ex CDS.

FSC has been advanced by 4? years and the deleted T45s 7-12 are not beyond being reinstated. That's not to say there are plans to do so media lurkers.

Tout the party line elswhere, I ain't buying
My bold. You don't have to tell me you don't work in or understand procurement. :wink:

finknottle wrote
It's a minor detail but if you are going to quote please make sure you get the poster responsible.

If it's to me you refer, I didn't quote you. If I did I would have used the style above. I quoted text from the type of post that you criticise, not make. Please look again.


War Hero
Seadog said:
FSC has been advanced by 4? years

So that's what they call extending the 23's out to 32-36 years! :lol:

Seem to remember when FSC was supposed to be 2015 to replace the 22's

This is far as FSC has gotten to date…

Jane's Navy International


UK Dukes delay their retirement plans
Tim Fish

Key Points
Out-of-service dates for the UK's Type 23 frigates have been postponed to 2023-36

Helicopter carrier HMS Ocean will remain in service until 2022, four years later than previously planned

The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) is to retain the Royal Navy's (RN's) 13 Duke-class (Type 23) frigates in service for up to 36 years - twice as long as originally envisaged.

When conceived in the early 1980s as a Cold War anti-submarine warfare (ASW) frigate, the Type 23 had an 18-year design life. This was later increased to over 25 years.

However, out-of-service dates (OSDs) released by the MoD on 6 November 2008 reveal that force planners have recently added a further four to eight years to the operational life of each ship, giving them a revised lifespan of between 32 and 36 years.

In their original role, the frigates were intended to conduct relatively short-duration towed array patrols in the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap. The 18-year design life was predicated on two factors: the need to be significantly cheaper to procure than the previous Type 22 frigates; and a policy decision to abandon costly and complex mid-life upgrades on account of their high cost and limited return.

Replying to a parliamentary written question, Armed Forces Minister Bob Ainsworth said that HMS Argyll - the oldest Type 23 in RN service - was now scheduled to serve through to 2023, extending its career from 28 to 32 years.

In the most extreme case, HMS Sutherland - which commissioned in 1997 and has just completed a 12-month-long refit - will serve through to 2033. This is eight years later than the previous MoD forecast, and twice its original design life.

Although originally built for a deep water ASW role, the Type 23s have over the last 15 years been employed as general-purpose ships for extended duration global deployments. Eight ships are receiving the new Sonar 2087 low frequency/active passive sonar and are primarily roled for task group support. Sutherland is the latest Type 23 unit to receive Sonar 2087, emerging from Babcock's Rosyth dockyard in mid-November after a refit costing GBP35 million (USD52 million).

The extension to the Type 23 OSDs is expected to challenge platform and machinery upkeep as the vessels grow older. It will also demand further capability upgrades to ensure that the ships remain viable in the late 2020s and early 2030s.

Ainsworth also announced a four-year extension in the planned life of the helicopter carrier HMS Ocean (shifting its OSD from 2018 to 2022) and an additional three to four years for the four Broadsword-class (Type 22) Batch 3 frigates. The Type 22s will now remain in service until 2019-22, by which time each ship will be over 30 years old.

In a reply to Jane's regarding the announced service-life extensions, the MoD stated: "The out-of-service dates [OSDs] for the Type 22 and Type 23 frigates have been revised a number of times in recent planning rounds. In some cases these revisions have shortened the assumed service lives of these ships, but in most cases they have extended them; extending the service of any existing ship to meet emerging requirements, or to maintain overall fleet capability until the full introduction of newer vessels, is nothing new.

"Indeed, maintaining a capable ship beyond its original OSD may well represent the best-value option available. Such decisions are not taken lightly and the costs, benefits and risks of any extension are carefully considered in every case. In the long term, the Royal Navy is committed to an equipment programme that seeks to ensure that the ships that it operates remain among the most advanced and effective in the world and fully capable of doing all that is expected of them."


War Hero
thanks for clearing that up,I did say I have no knowledge of armoured vehicles,but it begs the question if you were surrounded by screaming Iraqis with petrol bombs why were you not buttoned up tight?
Somehow I can't see the Israelis falling for that, they have remote machine guns to clear paths if needed or warning shots.
I've never been comfortable watching that clip of a burning soldier baling out of an armoured vehicle due to petrol bombs.
On a different question! why do Israelis wear a kind of cloth over their steel/Kevlar helmets?is it religious or does it break up the outline in urban fighting?if so why no others using it.
Someone will know but it puzzled me.
Firstly, thank fcuk, they are adding more armour to the Vikings, at least they are doing it. I seem to remember a South African apartied era designed vehicle with a v shaped under body, being a devout follower of shanks' pony armour isn't my thing (apart from the trusty '84) but I suppose if you make all undersides V shaped then the overall profile is taller and that's a bad thing.

Cloth on helmets, yes, it breaks up the outline. That way the bad guys get to think "look, there's a cloth covered helmet" instead of "look, there's a helmet".


War Hero
Re the FSC and any other future ships, there is no industrial capacity until after 2015, so even if we had the money....... Ships, aircraft, wagons, tanks etc aren't magiced up, there isn't a warehouse full of them just waiting on HMG signing a release order.

There is a thread on ARRSE that sums up the general ignorance of defence among outrage bus passengers, 'if I was CDS I'd sack all the civil servants and buy lots of kit' sort of bollocks. Well, after the coup maybe, but you'll still need money, conscription to man everything and you'll have to regenerate an industrial capacity.

If there is something better that'll better serve the front line, let's have it but there are, like it or not, limits.


War Hero
Aaaah yes the "If I was Defence" thread = I posted on there asking them what jobs /roles they'd like to stop doing if they sacked all the CS, and did they realise that replacing them with military (preferred option) would cost 2-3 times as much, so wouldn't save any money at all? Strangely enough no one replied :)


Book Reviewer
Bae has four Corvettes that could probably be purchaed tomorrow, I would have thought that they would be more than adequate for a lot of the present day tasks, in particular the anti piracy patrols. Had a recent conversation with someone who has been involved with them and he tells me that they aren't anything like as bad as some would have you believe. Also I would have thought that being powered by diesel engines would make them attractive if I am correct in assuming that this would make maintainance easier.


War Hero
Seadog said:
If there is something better that'll better serve the front line, let's have it but there are, like it or not, limits.

Funny old world… Ships paid off early to save a few million, then Neue Arbiet bungs the equivalent of the entire annual defence budget down an economic black hole with no hope of ever getting it back after it lets it's mates in the City **** up.
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