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Armour for Vikings after Royal Marine's death

Oil_Slick

War Hero
Purple_twiglet said:
The problem with bringing Blackhawk into service is that each airframe we use has to undergo trials / training and so on. Its not a case of going "heres a helo, use it" - but a case of knowing what to do with it so we can use it properly.

In terms of training - if we don't train the pilots to use the kit, then they may crash it - so not much use there is it? If we don't train the engineers to use the kit, then they can’t maintain it and the planes fall out of the sky. If we’re going to rely on the US to provide the manpower (a very dangerous assumption as if they turn off the tap, we are totally screwed), then we may as well get US squadrons attached – it’ll be quicker to do that. I haven’t even touched on the integration issues, of putting our kit onto the airframe, modifying it to Theatre Entry Standard, and then ensuring it works well enough to be relied on and used by our people. Its not a case of “buy a helicopter and put it in Helmand†– it’s a case of buy an airframe and get it to the point where we can deploy it, sustain it, and use it alongside our own kit without problems and then put it in helmand. This takes time – in peacetime several years, and in ops time, still several years.

The other problem we’d have is where do we get the manpower from to do this – we have a limited pool of engineers and aircrew and they are stretched to the limit. If we take them off current fleets then we can’t sustain the Mk4 and Lynx and lose availability. If we recruit new entrants, then it’ll take 2-3 years minimum before we have enough people to man up the airfames and use them properly. We don’t have the bodies available to just go “man a whole new aircraft type and sustain currently in service fleets†– I wish to god we did, but the system doesn’t work like that.

The SH requirement is for an increase in capability now - not in the 3-5 yrs it would take to bring the Blackhawk into service. We also don't have the money to do it, but thats a moot point really!


Manpower? Take all the pilots flying around in teeny weeny airways and give them some grown up helos. Those Lynx's can then be usefully parked in a field for spares.

There ya go gain… WHY do we have to fit out any airframe we buy with all bespoke kit? We always get this from Whitehall… as long as the radios work on our frequencies you're good to go in the real world. Likewise, it don't take years to transition a pilot to a new type. People like Bristows et all do it in weeks not years. Mate of mine used to fly Lynx's off the back of a pussers war canoe. Went outside, some conversion training and now he's happily gadding about in a nice shiny and very gucchi EC145 for Her Majesties Police.


It's always the same from MoD, spares, logistics, training, blah, blah, blah… And meanwhile, most of the rest of the world, both military and civil seems to have no big drama buying and deploying shiny new 'Made in the USA' toys. NO matter what MoD buys they always spend years getting it into service. One is reminded of the bullshit issue with the bung in the back of a Hellfire that caused so much drama for us, but caused no issues over many years with dozens of other users. A suspicious mind would think that a huge industry had grown up to keep gazillions of MoD civil serpents gainfully employed doing tests, trials and writing up mountains of paperwork for the prime purpose of keeping themselves gainfully employed.
 

Purple_twiglet

War Hero
Moderator
Oil Slick - its very easy to go on and say "just deploy a piece of kit" but its a lot harder to actually do it. Ask the Merlin fleet what their major issue at the moment is and they will say "SPARES". If we don't have spares, then the planes don't fly - its as simple as that. Afghanistan eats spare parts like a child eats sweets - we get through enormous reserves of spare parts to keep the aircraft flying on a daily basis.

to get the spares into service takes time - you need to work out what you need, how to get them there, how to use them, how to train people to use them. I work alongside a lot of WAFUs and they would say exactly the same thing - work out how to support the platform first, otherwise it'll work for about 2-3 flights and then go tits up.

The "bespoke kit" is the fact that all the aircraft we use in theatre are modified to carry a lot of things - usually requested through the UOR process - in other words the stuff the lads on the grounds want to see on their helos. This includes comms, decoys, weapons and so on. That is what I'm referring to when we talk aboout bespoke kit - but it isn't cheap to do, and does take a while to work.

A final point - the UOR process is run at all levels by the military and very experienced military personnel at that. I work in it day in, day out and I know that the arguments I've just made are those I hear coming from WAFU, TWA and Crab Air people all the time.

Don't forget the old maxim = "amateurs think tactics, professionals think logistics"
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
Desperate time need desperate measure.

Mod and Whitehall need to man up and go cap in hand to the Cousins and admit we're up shit creek, and can you lend us a paddle.

MoD is still trying to have a Gold Plated procurement process when all they can afford is pocket money prices.


And Merlin for tactical lift? Most pointless purchase we ever made. A hugely expensive and complex way of carting people around.
 

Purple_twiglet

War Hero
Moderator
You aren't listening to what I'm saying - I'm not saying it can't happen, but I'm saying its not a simple case of "give us 20 helos tomorrow please". UOR procurement works and works well - but there are limits.
If you had your way you'd stick helos in theatre without the UOR kit specifically requested by troops on the ground, placing the boys in even greater danger.

The reason for Lynx T800 is to provide year round capabiltiy for small patrols - no need for Merlin to do that then, making life a lot simpler for all.
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
Purple_twiglet said:
You aren't listening to what I'm saying - I'm not saying it can't happen, but I'm saying its not a simple case of "give us 20 helos tomorrow please". UOR procurement works and works well - but there are limits.
If you had your way you'd stick helos in theatre without the UOR kit specifically requested by troops on the ground, placing the boys in even greater danger.

The reason for Lynx T800 is to provide year round capabiltiy for small patrols - no need for Merlin to do that then, making life a lot simpler for all.


Given the choice of trundling around Helmand as a bullet magnet in a Snatch or being carted around in some prehistric Mil 17's, I'd take the Mil's every day thank you.

If we don't break out of this procurement loop nothing will change but that's not a problem, politicians like it that way, avoids spending money. We've been in A'Stan, what? 6 years now, and we are STILL facing the same chronic shortage of airlift.
 

seafarer1939

War Hero
I really have no experience of any armoured vehicles but I did notice[and not understand to well] American Marines baling out of a top of the range Abrams tank after it was hit with a RPG!it was wrecked with no turret.
Also one of our Challengers with all it's merited and highly rated Chobham armour that can withstand most shells, caused 3 sqaddies to bale,one on fire,and that was the result of petrol bombs!
When top of the range tanks are so easily disabled why are we suprised when Vikings are blown up thu not fitting hardened steel under supports?
As said it's a mystery to me although Israel seems to have some fearsome tanks judging by their appearance.
None lost either it seems.
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
seafarer1939 said:
I really have no experience of any armoured vehicles but I did notice[and not understand to well] American Marines baling out of a top of the range Abrams tank after it was hit with a RPG!it was wrecked with no turret.
Also one of our Challengers with all it's merited and highly rated Chobham armour that can withstand most shells, caused 3 sqaddies to bale,one on fire,and that was the result of petrol bombs!
When top of the range tanks are so easily disabled why are we suprised when Vikings are blown up thu not fitting hardened steel under supports?
As said it's a mystery to me although Israel seems to have some fearsome tanks judging by their appearance.
None lost either it seems.


The British vehicle you refer to was a Warrior. A Warrior is NOT a Challenger…likewise, if the Warrior had been buttoned up, petrol bombs would have just scorched the paint.

The Abrahms had an engine fire after an RPG hit the APU in the engine bay, (that weakness has now been addressed), and all bailed out perfectly safely. The abandoned vehicle was shot up with 120mm rounds from other Abrahms no effect, they fired a couple of Mavericks at it with no significant effect, so they resorted to Plan C and dropped a 1,000lb LGB on it that finally rendered it US.
 

danny

War Hero
Oil_Slick said:
Eventually, those cvnts at WHitehall will buy the right gear for the job.

Note to whoever is the current useless liebour tosser running the MoD, we need MINE PROTECTED VEHICLES!!!!!

Is there such a thing?
 
danny said:
Oil_Slick said:
Eventually, those cvnts at WHitehall will buy the right gear for the job.

Note to whoever is the current useless liebour tosser running the MoD, we need MINE PROTECTED VEHICLES!!!!!

Is there such a thing?

I'm sure there is one near as damn it, it just comes down to how much it costs though!!
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
danny said:
Oil_Slick said:
Eventually, those cvnts at WHitehall will buy the right gear for the job.

Note to whoever is the current useless liebour tosser running the MoD, we need MINE PROTECTED VEHICLES!!!!!

Is there such a thing?


Yes there is, one that been extensively combat proven in Iraq by the Cousins and us and has been proven to be incredibly survivable… They call it the Cougar MRAP, we call it the Mastiff.


No one was killed in these two after being hit by large IEDs, if that had been a Snatch, Vector, Jackal, Pinzguar or any of the other not designed for the job crap we bimble around in, all that would be left was fragments and dead crew.




Marine Gunnery Sgt. Timothy Colomer, 32, was leading an explosive ordnance disposal (EOD) team on a mission last December when his Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicle, a Cougar, hit a massive IED. Everyone in the vehicle was knocked unconscious by the blast, but all survived. Here is his story:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/military/2007-07-15-colomer-usat_N.htm


And how about this one?





a USMC Cougar mine resistant and ambush protected (MRAP) vehicle after it had been hit by a very substantial IED in Iraq. The crew escaped with only minor injuries and no one was killed, even though the blast ripped the engine from its armoured bay and hurled it over 100 yards
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
finknottle said:
http://www.army.mod.uk/7591.aspx



Oooooh! Lets suck New Liebours dicks! They coughed up £700 mill 6 YEARS after the start of the main event when the casualty rate started getting embarrasing.
 

danny

War Hero
Oil_Slick said:
danny said:
Oil_Slick said:
Eventually, those cvnts at WHitehall will buy the right gear for the job.

Note to whoever is the current useless liebour tosser running the MoD, we need MINE PROTECTED VEHICLES!!!!!

Is there such a thing?


Yes there is, one that been extensively combat proven in Iraq by the Cousins and us and has been proven to be incredibly survivable… They call it the Cougar MRAP, we call it the Mastiff.

Having been involved in the recovery of a mastiff very recently in the desert. Although a very good vehicle and no brits have yet been killed in one, its probably only a matter of time.
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
danny said:
Oil_Slick said:
danny said:
Oil_Slick said:
Eventually, those cvnts at WHitehall will buy the right gear for the job.

Note to whoever is the current useless liebour tosser running the MoD, we need MINE PROTECTED VEHICLES!!!!!

Is there such a thing?


Yes there is, one that been extensively combat proven in Iraq by the Cousins and us and has been proven to be incredibly survivable… They call it the Cougar MRAP, we call it the Mastiff.

Having been involved in the recovery of a mastiff very recently in the desert. Although a very good vehicle and no brits have yet been killed in one, its probably only a matter of time.


Indeed that's true, but the point being made is that much more suitable and highly survivable gear has been available for years, but is only now being grudgingly bought by Liebor as the casualty rates get politically embarrassing.
 

Seadog

War Hero
Moderator
It may be easier to bin/lock this entire bad natured thread than edit and selectively delete. If you can't play nice in Current Affairs, the serious thread, go somewhere else.

I don't agree with much of Finknottle's output either but he has a point. Ill informed stuff such as;

I can remember Bandy stamping his foot and demanding 12 45's or else… Told to wind his neck in or no Peerage and Viola! Neck wound in!

does not add value because it is strategic sailor (that's armchair admiral) fiction. Who told him OS? When? How did you manage to witness this encounter? Why would JB be in line for a peerage when other 1SLs don't qualify by dint of being 1SL? (AW didn't).

Purple Twiglet has an idea of how procurement works and doesn't. Those who don't know, please ask questions rather than spread ignorance.
 
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