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Armour for Vikings after Royal Marine's death

finknottle

Banned
ex_rubberdagger and that is what separates us from the Yanks we don't bomb indiscriminately but use boots on the ground to ensure the risk of killing innocents is minimised, are you saying that is a bad thing?

As for the lack of response to my question it comes as no surprise that none were forthcoming.
 
finknottle said:
ex_rubberdagger and that is what separates us from the Yanks we don't bomb indiscriminately but use boots on the ground to ensure the risk of killing innocents is minimised, are you saying that is a bad thing?

As for the lack of response to my question it comes as no surprise that none were forthcoming.

Of course it isn't a bad thing. My point is getting the troops to where they need to go as safe as possible whilst minimising the threat of IED attack you annoying little man!!!

FFS :roll: :roll:
 

Moomin

War Hero
finknottle said:
ex_rubberdagger and that is what separates us from the Yanks we don't bomb indiscriminately but use boots on the ground to ensure the risk of killing innocents is minimised, are you saying that is a bad thing?

As for the lack of response to my question it comes as no surprise that none were forthcoming.

Boots on the ground is fine - If they have the equipment to do the job, but they don't! As to lack of response...Maybe people are just getting fed up repeating themselves - just a thought!
 

finknottle

Banned
ex_rubberdagger said:
finknottle said:
ex_rubberdagger and that is what separates us from the Yanks we don't bomb indiscriminately but use boots on the ground to ensure the risk of killing innocents is minimised, are you saying that is a bad thing?

As for the lack of response to my question it comes as no surprise that none were forthcoming.

Of course it isn't a bad thing. My point is getting the troops to where they need to go as safe as possible whilst minimising the threat of IED attack you annoying little man!!!

FFS :roll: :roll:

The recent tragic losses have been men on the ground not in vehicles. So are you are now saying that all foot patrols should be axed and that any future attack should be carried out without using soldiers on foot? Incidentally I do not find you to be in the slightest bit annoying.
 
finknottle said:
ex_rubberdagger said:
finknottle said:
ex_rubberdagger and that is what separates us from the Yanks we don't bomb indiscriminately but use boots on the ground to ensure the risk of killing innocents is minimised, are you saying that is a bad thing?

As for the lack of response to my question it comes as no surprise that none were forthcoming.

Of course it isn't a bad thing. My point is getting the troops to where they need to go as safe as possible whilst minimising the threat of IED attack you annoying little man!!!

FFS :roll: :roll:

The recent tragic losses have been men on the ground not in vehicles. So are you are now saying that all foot patrols should be axed and that any future attack should be carried out without using soldiers on foot?

Are you a total fcukwit or what!!!

i'll slow down a bit for you as your obviously a bit retarded. We are discussing the lack of suitable equipment available to the troops, I.E soft skinned vehicles and helicopters that can, if equipped to the correct standard help save lives and prevent unnecessary loss of life. Of course boots on the ground are going to die, thats the way it is but there should at least be the correct application of equipment to minimalise unnecessary death!!

:roll:
 

finknottle

Banned
Well then we can go back to the Jackal tested by SF's and deemed by them fit for purpose I suppose that's the governments fault as well; is it? Just to get things in perspective and I am sure you will know that when Royal was in NI and that isn't long ago all he had was a tin hat and his SLR, things have come a long way since then.
 
finknottle said:
Well then we can go back to the Jackal tested by SF's and deemed by them fit for purpose I suppose that's the governments fault as well; is it? Just to get things in perspective and I am sure you will know that when Royal was in NI and that isn't long ago all he had was a tin hat and his SLR, things have come a long way since then.

:roll: :roll:
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
finknottle said:
Well then we can go back to the Jackal tested by SF's and deemed by them fit for purpose I suppose that's the governments fault as well; is it? Just to get things in perspective and I am sure you will know that when Royal was in NI and that isn't long ago all he had was a tin hat and his SLR, things have come a long way since then.


You've got a permanent fvcking hard on for the Jackel, haven't you!

SF have different fvcking needs from the ordinary bods. SF sneak about in the bushes after dark playing hide and seek, ordinary bods drive along roads and tracks in daylight and travel regular routes.

Not hard, is it?
 
Oil_Slick said:
finknottle said:
Well then we can go back to the Jackal tested by SF's and deemed by them fit for purpose I suppose that's the governments fault as well; is it? Just to get things in perspective and I am sure you will know that when Royal was in NI and that isn't long ago all he had was a tin hat and his SLR, things have come a long way since then.


You've got a permanent fvcking hard on for the Jackel, haven't you!

SF have different fvcking needs from the ordinary bods. SF sneak about in the bushes after dark playing hide and seek, ordinary bods drive along roads and tracks in daylight and travel regular routes.

Not hard, is it?

Which is precisely why we are getting in the shit so often
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
ex_rubberdagger said:
Oil_Slick said:
finknottle said:
Well then we can go back to the Jackal tested by SF's and deemed by them fit for purpose I suppose that's the governments fault as well; is it? Just to get things in perspective and I am sure you will know that when Royal was in NI and that isn't long ago all he had was a tin hat and his SLR, things have come a long way since then.


You've got a permanent fvcking hard on for the Jackel, haven't you!

SF have different fvcking needs from the ordinary bods. SF sneak about in the bushes after dark playing hide and seek, ordinary bods drive along roads and tracks in daylight and travel regular routes.

Not hard, is it?

Which is precisely why we are getting in the shit so often


Indeed, but it's seems to be beyond the grasp of Liebors resident apologist to grasp that.
 
Oil_Slick said:
ex_rubberdagger said:
Oil_Slick said:
finknottle said:
Well then we can go back to the Jackal tested by SF's and deemed by them fit for purpose I suppose that's the governments fault as well; is it? Just to get things in perspective and I am sure you will know that when Royal was in NI and that isn't long ago all he had was a tin hat and his SLR, things have come a long way since then.


You've got a permanent fvcking hard on for the Jackel, haven't you!

SF have different fvcking needs from the ordinary bods. SF sneak about in the bushes after dark playing hide and seek, ordinary bods drive along roads and tracks in daylight and travel regular routes.

Not hard, is it?

Which is precisely why we are getting in the shit so often


Indeed, but it's seems to be beyond the grasp of Liebors resident apologist to grasp that.

As far as i can see its a no-brainer slick. If there is a succinct need for Helos then fcuk it lease them off another NATO country who appear to do fcuk all anyway!!
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
ex_rubberdagger said:
Oil_Slick said:
ex_rubberdagger said:
Oil_Slick said:
finknottle said:
Well then we can go back to the Jackal tested by SF's and deemed by them fit for purpose I suppose that's the governments fault as well; is it? Just to get things in perspective and I am sure you will know that when Royal was in NI and that isn't long ago all he had was a tin hat and his SLR, things have come a long way since then.


You've got a permanent fvcking hard on for the Jackel, haven't you!

SF have different fvcking needs from the ordinary bods. SF sneak about in the bushes after dark playing hide and seek, ordinary bods drive along roads and tracks in daylight and travel regular routes.

Not hard, is it?

Which is precisely why we are getting in the shit so often


Indeed, but it's seems to be beyond the grasp of Liebors resident apologist to grasp that.

As far as i can see its a no-brainer slick. If there is a succinct need for Helos then fcuk it lease them off another NATO country who appear to do fcuk all anyway!!


It's back to the same old problem… Liebour not wanting to admit they got it wrong.

Was talking with a Occifer bod just in from AStan when I was in Haslar last year. Seems the Cousins were willing to give us a couple of dozen Blackhawks for not much money. No requirement according to MoD and it was passed up. Translation: We will look like a bunch of cvnts if the Yanks give us a load of rather nifty helos because they are worried about our casualty rates and ability to move.
 
Oil_Slick said:
ex_rubberdagger said:
Oil_Slick said:
ex_rubberdagger said:
Oil_Slick said:
finknottle said:
Well then we can go back to the Jackal tested by SF's and deemed by them fit for purpose I suppose that's the governments fault as well; is it? Just to get things in perspective and I am sure you will know that when Royal was in NI and that isn't long ago all he had was a tin hat and his SLR, things have come a long way since then.


You've got a permanent fvcking hard on for the Jackel, haven't you!

SF have different fvcking needs from the ordinary bods. SF sneak about in the bushes after dark playing hide and seek, ordinary bods drive along roads and tracks in daylight and travel regular routes.

Not hard, is it?

Which is precisely why we are getting in the shit so often


Indeed, but it's seems to be beyond the grasp of Liebors resident apologist to grasp that.

As far as i can see its a no-brainer slick. If there is a succinct need for Helos then fcuk it lease them off another NATO country who appear to do fcuk all anyway!!


It's back to the same old problem… Liebour not wanting to admit they got it wrong.

Was talking with a Occifer bod just in from AStan when I was in Haslar last year. Seems the Cousins were willing to give us a couple of dozen Blackhawks for not much money. No requirement according to MoD and it was passed up. Translation: We will look like a bunch of cvnts if the Yanks give us a load of rather nifty helos because they are worried about our casualty rates and ability to move.

Meanwhile my colleagues and I are stood at Brum airport helping with the repatriation of the wounded which is upsetting in light of what you have just mentioned.
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
ex_rubberdagger said:
Oil_Slick said:
ex_rubberdagger said:
Oil_Slick said:
ex_rubberdagger said:
Oil_Slick said:
finknottle said:
Well then we can go back to the Jackal tested by SF's and deemed by them fit for purpose I suppose that's the governments fault as well; is it? Just to get things in perspective and I am sure you will know that when Royal was in NI and that isn't long ago all he had was a tin hat and his SLR, things have come a long way since then.


You've got a permanent fvcking hard on for the Jackel, haven't you!

SF have different fvcking needs from the ordinary bods. SF sneak about in the bushes after dark playing hide and seek, ordinary bods drive along roads and tracks in daylight and travel regular routes.

Not hard, is it?

Which is precisely why we are getting in the shit so often


Indeed, but it's seems to be beyond the grasp of Liebors resident apologist to grasp that.

As far as i can see its a no-brainer slick. If there is a succinct need for Helos then fcuk it lease them off another NATO country who appear to do fcuk all anyway!!


It's back to the same old problem… Liebour not wanting to admit they got it wrong.

Was talking with a Occifer bod just in from AStan when I was in Haslar last year. Seems the Cousins were willing to give us a couple of dozen Blackhawks for not much money. No requirement according to MoD and it was passed up. Translation: We will look like a bunch of cvnts if the Yanks give us a load of rather nifty helos because they are worried about our casualty rates and ability to move.

Meanwhile my colleagues and I are stood at Brum airport helping with the repatriation of the wounded which is upsetting in light of what you have just mentioned.


Labour lied and good men died.


Did that cvnt B'Liar ever visit the wounded? Can't seem to remember him doing so. :evil:
 
Oil_Slick said:
ex_rubberdagger said:
Oil_Slick said:
ex_rubberdagger said:
Oil_Slick said:
ex_rubberdagger said:
Oil_Slick said:
finknottle said:
Well then we can go back to the Jackal tested by SF's and deemed by them fit for purpose I suppose that's the governments fault as well; is it? Just to get things in perspective and I am sure you will know that when Royal was in NI and that isn't long ago all he had was a tin hat and his SLR, things have come a long way since then.


You've got a permanent fvcking hard on for the Jackel, haven't you!

SF have different fvcking needs from the ordinary bods. SF sneak about in the bushes after dark playing hide and seek, ordinary bods drive along roads and tracks in daylight and travel regular routes.

Not hard, is it?

Which is precisely why we are getting in the shit so often


Indeed, but it's seems to be beyond the grasp of Liebors resident apologist to grasp that.

As far as i can see its a no-brainer slick. If there is a succinct need for Helos then fcuk it lease them off another NATO country who appear to do fcuk all anyway!!


It's back to the same old problem… Liebour not wanting to admit they got it wrong.

Was talking with a Occifer bod just in from AStan when I was in Haslar last year. Seems the Cousins were willing to give us a couple of dozen Blackhawks for not much money. No requirement according to MoD and it was passed up. Translation: We will look like a bunch of cvnts if the Yanks give us a load of rather nifty helos because they are worried about our casualty rates and ability to move.

Meanwhile my colleagues and I are stood at Brum airport helping with the repatriation of the wounded which is upsetting in light of what you have just mentioned.


Labour lied and good men died.


Did that cvnt B'Liar ever visit the wounded? Can't seem to remember him doing so. :evil:

And then theres the question of why there aren't any dedicated military hospitals anymore. In some ways i can see why they need the expertise that Smellyfolk offers when you have people like Professor P et al doing the clinical lead on Orthopaedic cases. Perhaps it will get better for the guys/girls when they move to the new hospital up the road but even that isn't going to be big enough when its built!!
 

Purple_twiglet

War Hero
Moderator
At the risk of getting stuck here, its worth pointing out that UOR procurement is driven by the requests that come in from Theatre. If we don't have pieces of kit discussed here, then its because Theatre hasn't asked for it - if they had then it would have come through.

As for blackhawk - easy to say "buy 24 airframes", lot more difficult to work out spares supply, basing plans, train up mechanics, pilots, aircrew, develop TTPs, do all the trials required to bring a totally new airframe into service. Even if done as quickly as possible (and as safely as possible), it would take a couple of years to do this.

Requirement is for small cabs at the moment - big ones are being used for small patrols - so the Lynx T800 is the best way forward to meet this in a hurry - not buying a totally new helo.

Final point - UOR funding is for theatre specific kit - if we did buy Blackhawk, we could only use it in HERRICK, and then either dispose of it, or bring it into core. There is no money in core to introduce a totally new SH capability into service at the moment, and boy would it be really expensive if we did.
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
Purple_twiglet said:
At the risk of getting stuck here, its worth pointing out that UOR procurement is driven by the requests that come in from Theatre. If we don't have pieces of kit discussed here, then its because Theatre hasn't asked for it - if they had then it would have come through.

As for blackhawk - easy to say "buy 24 airframes", lot more difficult to work out spares supply, basing plans, train up mechanics, pilots, aircrew, develop TTPs, do all the trials required to bring a totally new airframe into service. Even if done as quickly as possible (and as safely as possible), it would take a couple of years to do this.

Requirement is for small cabs at the moment - big ones are being used for small patrols - so the Lynx T800 is the best way forward to meet this in a hurry - not buying a totally new helo.

Final point - UOR funding is for theatre specific kit - if we did buy Blackhawk, we could only use it in HERRICK, and then either dispose of it, or bring it into core. There is no money in core to introduce a totally new SH capability into service at the moment, and boy would it be really expensive if we did.


Sounds like a typical Whitehall response…

Why so difficult to use Blackhawks? Cousins have gazillions of them and I don't think they're going to say feckoff and fix your own out in the sandy places.

Also, Westland seemed to have no issues building a Blackhwak back in the day so it's not some ubercomplicated airframe… at the end of the day, it's a helicopter made/designed in the USA, just like the wokka wokkas, Apaches and Sea Kings we seem to get by with so comfortably. Why is it us who seem to have so many issues with using foreign gear? Everyone else seems to have no issues, but there again, they don't have domestic manufacturers to prop up, do they?

Lest be realistic here, we all know bloody well why the idea of buying surplus Blackhawks would have been shitcanned… Votes. Can't be seen to be putting a load of people on the dole in the West Country with an election looming and some not so safe seats down there, can we.

And as for Lynx? Well past it's sell by date, too small, too fragile and doesn't like the heat. You can stick shiny new engines in it to fix point 3, but the other 2 points are still just as valid. And don't get me started on that ridiculous 'Future Lynx'! FFS!!! You can buy 2 new build UH-60's for what each of those will cost!
 

finknottle

Banned
ex_rubberdagger said:
Oil_Slick said:
finknottle said:
Well then we can go back to the Jackal tested by SF's and deemed by them fit for purpose I suppose that's the governments fault as well; is it? Just to get things in perspective and I am sure you will know that when Royal was in NI and that isn't long ago all he had was a tin hat and his SLR, things have come a long way since then.


You've got a permanent fvcking hard on for the Jackel, haven't you!

SF have different fvcking needs from the ordinary bods. SF sneak about in the bushes after dark playing hide and seek, ordinary bods drive along roads and tracks in daylight and travel regular routes.

Not hard, is it?

Which is precisely why we are getting in the shit so often

So I suppose Mr Gordon Brown is now responsible for route planning in Afghanistan, ye gods! Ordinary bods as you choose to call them do not all travel along roads and tracks these 'ordinary bods' are out on a daily basis scouring the wilderness in off road vehicles, it's not just SF's.

All this harping on about Blackhawks what possible use are they for lifting a troop of soldiers? I think some of you have been watching too many movies.
 

Purple_twiglet

War Hero
Moderator
The problem with bringing Blackhawk into service is that each airframe we use has to undergo trials / training and so on. Its not a case of going "heres a helo, use it" - but a case of knowing what to do with it so we can use it properly.

In terms of training - if we don't train the pilots to use the kit, then they may crash it - so not much use there is it? If we don't train the engineers to use the kit, then they can’t maintain it and the planes fall out of the sky. If we’re going to rely on the US to provide the manpower (a very dangerous assumption as if they turn off the tap, we are totally screwed), then we may as well get US squadrons attached – it’ll be quicker to do that. I haven’t even touched on the integration issues, of putting our kit onto the airframe, modifying it to Theatre Entry Standard, and then ensuring it works well enough to be relied on and used by our people. Its not a case of “buy a helicopter and put it in Helmand†– it’s a case of buy an airframe and get it to the point where we can deploy it, sustain it, and use it alongside our own kit without problems and then put it in helmand. This takes time – in peacetime several years, and in ops time, still several years.

The other problem we’d have is where do we get the manpower from to do this – we have a limited pool of engineers and aircrew and they are stretched to the limit. If we take them off current fleets then we can’t sustain the Mk4 and Lynx and lose availability. If we recruit new entrants, then it’ll take 2-3 years minimum before we have enough people to man up the airfames and use them properly. We don’t have the bodies available to just go “man a whole new aircraft type and sustain currently in service fleets†– I wish to god we did, but the system doesn’t work like that.

The SH requirement is for an increase in capability now - not in the 3-5 yrs it would take to bring the Blackhawk into service. We also don't have the money to do it, but thats a moot point really!
 
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