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Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders

sgtpepperband

War Hero
Book Reviewer
Re: Argylle and Sutherland Highlanders

rosinacarley said:
...I heard that when Italy won the world cup he had to be physically restrained from running up the street with his Italian flag waving in the air.

He lives in Wakefield!

Wow, that must have been awkward. As the Italian flag is a white cross on a white background, everyone must've thought he was surrendering!! :wink:
 

skimmer

Lantern Swinger
The real question to be asked is how an infantry battalion could have officers and NCO's so detached from what was going on in their own unit that this amount of criminal activity could be occurring under their noses.



RM[/quote]
Yes, the Daily Record.One father (as above raised the same question as You). What is the answer? is 17 from 500 indicative of the services,this regiment or the younger generation in general? I remember at a New Year party being called a "Steamer" 15 years ago cos I was drinking a can of beer after the bells, went to the toilet,all my beers were gone but the drugs were not; I left.
 

skimmer

Lantern Swinger
SGTP,in your' opinion,have you seen an increase in hard /soft drug abuse v alchohol abuse amongst the young/ older guys & is there an active policy to contain it.If so, it must make your' job harder,Jack,as I understand it was put into recess.pissed for his own good ie choking on vomit. The rest of us are old farts it seems ,so you'd be the only one in the Know.
 

sgtpepperband

War Hero
Book Reviewer
I will defend the Service policy on drug abuse, in accordance with my duty. However my own personal feeling may sometimes be contrary to this. However I feel that narcotic substance abuse in the RN is increasing, but it is not the crisis that some would like to think.

In the 'old days' the only drugs most matelots came across were marijuana; harder drugs (cocaine/heroin/etc.) were not in common circulation. However more recently they have become easier to obtain on the streets of the UK, so it is not surprising that people will experiment with these. Therefore the amount and types of drugs abused by Service personnel is increasing, but only in line with social trends.

The introduction of CDT (Compulsory Drug Testing) has acted as a deterrent (i.e. people will not use it in case they got caught) and as a weapon against abusers (i.e. the randomness of visits by the CDT Team). Additional compulsory bi-annual substance abuse education to all units is useful, both to serving personnel and to the team themselves, who listen to stories from those attending the lectures.

Given the nature of the job in the RN, I don't think that using drugs is an option available to most service personnel; I would be naive to believe that there are no abusers in most units, but the atmosphere on board (close confinement in messes, etc.) would make it difficult for someone to become addicted without someone noticing the side effects.

Alcohol abuse has always been an issue and will continue to be, but through management and education by superiors then it can be contained. Each command will have their own policy when it comes to issue of alcohol on board, but generally I don't think there is an epidemic.

The treatment of drunks has changed a little over the years, since we no longer have Crown immunity for private prosecution; therefore the days of the QM letting a drunk matelot down the mess unattended "so he won't get in trouble with the Joss" are gladly few and far between. Drunks still get scooped up by Provost patrols, but are placed in protective supervision (not in arrest) in a bed with at least two sentries placed on him. This is purely a duty of care 'health and safety' issue, to protect the interest of those concerned in his welfare. Disciplinary action may or may not occur, but this is not a given, depending on the circumstances.
 
Used to be a 'returning on board drunk' or 'drunk onboard' charge.

Was duty chief one day and got a call out from the duty watch --guy found
totally pissed . Duty killick detailed watches on him all night

Usual OOD in the morning --he got 28 days DQ from the skipper .




:nemo: :nemo:
 

skimmer

Lantern Swinger
sgtpepperband said:
I will defend the Service policy on drug abuse, in accordance with my duty. However my own personal feeling may sometimes be contrary to this. However I feel that narcotic substance abuse in the RN is increasing, but it is not the crisis that some would like to think.

In the 'old days' the only drugs most matelots came across were marijuana; harder drugs (cocaine/heroin/etc.) were not in common circulation. However more recently they have become easier to obtain on the streets of the UK, so it is not surprising that people will experiment with these. Therefore the amount and types of drugs abused by Service personnel is increasing, but only in line with social trends.

The introduction of CDT (Compulsory Drug Testing) has acted as a deterrent (i.e. people will not use it in case they got caught) and as a weapon against abusers (i.e. the randomness of visits by the CDT Team). Additional compulsory bi-annual substance abuse education to all units is useful, both to serving personnel and to the team themselves, who listen to stories from those attending the lectures.

Given the nature of the job in the RN, I don't think that using drugs is an option available to most service personnel; I would be naive to believe that there are no abusers in most units, but the atmosphere on board (close confinement in messes, etc.) would make it difficult for someone to become addicted without someone noticing the side effects.

Alcohol abuse has always been an issue and will continue to be, but through management and education by superiors then it can be contained. Each command will have their own policy when it comes to issue of alcohol on board, but generally I don't think there is an epidemic.

The treatment of drunks has changed a little over the years, since we no longer have Crown immunity for private prosecution; therefore the days of the QM letting a drunk matelot down the mess unattended "so he won't get in trouble with the Joss" are gladly few and far between. Drunks still get scooped up by Provost patrols, but are placed in protective supervision (not in arrest) in a bed with at least two sentries placed on him. This is purely a duty of care 'health and safety' issue, to protect the interest of those concerned in his welfare. Disciplinary action may or may not occur, but this is not a given, depending on the circumstances.

Thanks, an informative.no fence sitting answer.So really no great increase in drug abuse re the increase in civilian culture. A bit you admit to but no significant data to show it's a problem of say the US Navy,Vietnam era (My friend here served then & his brother just left as a Fleet Joss seems the US has sorted that out also).
I don't see any difference in the drunk policy since I left 20 years ago;although it was much earlier than that,that I was on the receiving end of recess,Provost patrol etc.We were inspected by a Doc,think it was only 0ne sentry keeping an eye on us but we were always trooped. Yes, the official route was sometimes bypassed if someone got past everything (usually a taxi to the Ship) but someone from the mess,usually the opposite number, would be required to baby sit said drunk (Ihad to do it,once) the Stoker puns were usually worse than say number Nines,also I think the guy in the wrong felt pretty shit for a while;peer pressure I supposelosing an oppos sleep. There are worse things in the clanky world than cleaning pots in the galley,as you well know.
Cheers,when you on leave?
 

sgtpepperband

War Hero
Book Reviewer
Greenie: those charges are still used, but as I said, our primary duty is the welfare of the person under the influence; any disciplinary action is secondary, and is not necesarily considered until all the facts are known, usually when they have 'sobered' up the following day.

Interestingly, drunkenness can be caused by alcohol OR drugs; in fact, a person can be arrested for drunkenness regardless of whether alcohol/drugs were consumed, based purely on their disorderly behaviour. The definition will change once the Armed Forces Discipline Act 2000 comes into effect sometime next year.

Drunkenness (iaw NDA 1957 Section 28) is still used:

"A person is drunk within the meaning of this section if owing to the influence of alcohol or any drug, whether alone or in combination with any other circumstances, he is unfit to be entrusted with his duty or with any duty which he might reasonably expect to be called upon to perform, or behaves in a disorderly manner or in a manner likely to bring discredit on Her Majesty’s service."
 

Bergen

ADC
skimmer said:
The real question to be asked is how an infantry battalion could have officers and NCO's so detached from what was going on in their own unit that this amount of criminal activity could be occurring under their noses.



RM
Yes, the Daily Record.One father (as above raised the same question as You). What is the answer? is 17 from 500 indicative of the services,this regiment or the younger generation in general? I remember at a New Year party being called a "Steamer" 15 years ago cos I was drinking a can of beer after the bells, went to the toilet,all my beers were gone but the drugs were not; I left.[/quote]by

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not clear how many were tested and everyone is being cagey on that point and leaving it as a supposition that the entire battalion was screened.

The other unasked question that must be a concern for MoD (although they would probably never admit it) is the wisdom of sending this unit to Afghanistan where 53 percent of the GDP is generated by heroin sales. It is cheaply and freely available and I have no doubt that the bad guys would be falling over themselves to insinuate this shit into our armed forces as the Seppos found to their cost in Vietnam and the Soviets in Afghanistan.


RM
 

sgtpepperband

War Hero
Book Reviewer
Skimmer: I am currently employed as one of ten Police Officers (with jurisdiction over UK/US, Mauritian and Phillipino military and civilian personnel) in Diego Garcia, so I am more than familiar with the different social attitudes towards alcohol and drugs. For example, the Brits here will think of nothing by having a night 'out on the piss' in accordance with habits from back home; the Americans less so. They are more socially aware of their conduct as they feel their behaviour is under constant scrutiny by their superiors. In fact, if they are involved in a public order incident - even as the injured party - and it is apparent that they had consumed alcohol (even only one or two cans) they are less likely to report the matter, as they do not want their superiors to know that alcohol was involved, regardless of any disorderly behaviour on their part, as it will be seen as a slur on their character!

Having said that, I am aware (from previous experience and speaking to the US Navy's Master-at-Arms Branch - equivalent to the Regulating Branch - who are based here on security duties) that the drug problem is much higher in the US Forces; possibly as a consequence of the recruiting criteria I alluded to in my comment above, or more likely as a result of their Presbyterian attitude towards alcohol abuse.

Regardless of which Service we serve in, alcohol and drug abuse will continue to be a problem. But it can be contained through covert methods (intelligence-led investigations) and overt methods (education and random testing). As we - the Armed Forces - are a reflection of the society that we serve, it is inevitable that members of that society will bring their social (and anti-social) habits with them when they join up. Brushing it under the carpet is not an option, but a pragmatic and sensible attitude is needed by all of us.

As I said, it is not the crisis that some would like us believe, but it could be if we don't take our eyes off the ball.
 

skimmer

Lantern Swinger
Bergen said:
skimmer said:
The real question to be asked is how an infantry battalion could have officers and NCO's so detached from what was going on in their own unit that this amount of criminal activity could be occurring under their noses.



RM
Yes, the Daily Record.One father (as above raised the same question as You). What is the answer? is 17 from 500 indicative of the services,this regiment or the younger generation in general? I remember at a New Year party being called a "Steamer" 15 years ago cos I was drinking a can of beer after the bells, went to the toilet,all my beers were gone but the drugs were not; I left.
by



The other unasked question that must be a concern for MoD (although they would probably never admit it) is the wisdom of sending this unit to Afghanistan where 53 percent of the GDP is generated by heroin sales. It is cheaply and freely available and I have no doubt that the bad guys would be falling over themselves to insinuate this shit into our armed forces as the Seppos found to their cost in Vietnam and the Soviets in Afghanistan.


RM[/quote]
Wasn't the original purpose for deployment to eradicate,re-educate & provide a substainable alternative crop/economy to the opium harvesting? No fighting involved! I'm sure that's what the incumbent defence secretary stated at the time.
 

skimmer

Lantern Swinger
SGTP,
Getting older,not necessarily wiser, helps but after all it's a young mans game. I grew up on the Invincible. Took longer than most.
 

AfterSSE

War Hero
sgtpepperband said:
Having said that, I am aware (from previous experience and speaking to the US Navy's Master-at-Arms Branch - equivalent to the Regulating Branch - who are based here on security duties) that the drug problem is much higher in the US Forces; possibly as a consequence of the recruiting criteria I alluded to in my comment above, or more likely as a result of their Presbyterian attitude towards alcohol abuse.

The Americans have a huge problem with drugs at sea, one of the reasons is because they sail "dry", kind of hard to wind down after a watch with just milk and cookies....on a cross pol with the USS Nimitz, we found out they carry fully armed sheriffs who patrol the corridors, because the ship is like a floating city and so has it's myriad of problems.....drugs being one of them, racial being the other...(mind you this was early 80's and maybe things have gotten better).

As for the shore patrol or meatheads, rounding up drunks, the usual practice before our military turned it over to the army was to bring em back to the ships and let the duty cox'n handle it...now it's a night in cells and marched into the XO's office the next morning for defaulters, and thanks to an agreement with the local police force and city officials our lads can now get double jeopardy charges, if they are brought back because of causing disturbances they are handed over to the locals who charge them and then once they are back in the fold they are charged again under the catch 22 of all charges....prejudice to the good order and conduct of being a member of the military.....which can basically be anything... :hockey:
 

sgtpepperband

War Hero
Book Reviewer
AfterSSE: That is nothing new; anyone arrested by the Civil Powers is duty bound (iaw QRRNs) to report the fact the the Commanding Officer, who may award additional consequential penalties as you describe. Being charged twice for the same offence is a fallacy and in fact unlawful, in accordance with the rules of advocacy.

When you are placed in front of the CO for this, you appear as a Requestman not a Defaulter. However personnel who do not report the arrest by the Civil Powers will be investigated for neglect (for failing to report, in accordance with their duty). Not so much a Catch 22 as you describe, but it is all part of the rights an employer has over its employees, to establish whether that person is suitable for further employment. Usually the service person is censured by means of a Career Check, however depending on the circumstances, Discharge SHORE/SNLR can be awarded.
 

skimmer

Lantern Swinger
sgtpepperband said:
AfterSSE: That is nothing new; anyone arrested by the Civil Powers is duty bound (iaw QRRNs) to report the fact the the Commanding Officer, who may award adt normallyditional consequential penalties as you describe. Being charged twice for the same offence is a fallacy and in fact unlawful, in accordance with the rules of advocacy.

When you are placed in front of the CO for this, you appear as a Requestman not a Defaulter. However personnel who do not report the arrest by the Civil Powers will be investigated for neglect (for failing to report, in accordance with their duty). Not so much a Catch 22 as you describe, but it is all part of the rights an employer has over its employees, to establish whether that person is suitable for further employment. Usually the service person is censured by means of a Career Check, however depending on the circumstances, Discharge SHORE/SNLR can be awarded.
Has it always been so complicted or as ratings who don't normally deal with these regulations, were we just ignorant of them?
 

skimmer

Lantern Swinger
SGPT,
How is DG for a draft? I was so looking forward to going there,didn't happen,posibly for good reasons.
ps thanks for the insight to relevant Regs
 

sgtpepperband

War Hero
Book Reviewer
Skimmer: DG is safe and well (apart from the cyclone warning as a side-effect of the bad weather hitting Bangladesh to the North at the moment). If you can get a contract with Cable & Wireless or DG-21 LLC then there's a pint with your name on it at the Brit Club... :thumright:
 

AfterSSE

War Hero
sgtpepperband said:
AfterSSE: That is nothing new; anyone arrested by the Civil Powers is duty bound (iaw QRRNs) to report the fact the the Commanding Officer, who may award additional consequential penalties as you describe. Being charged twice for the same offence is a fallacy and in fact unlawful, in accordance with the rules of advocacy.

When you are placed in front of the CO for this, you appear as a Requestman not a Defaulter. However personnel who do not report the arrest by the Civil Powers will be investigated for neglect (for failing to report, in accordance with their duty). Not so much a Catch 22 as you describe, but it is all part of the rights an employer has over its employees, to establish whether that person is suitable for further employment. Usually the service person is censured by means of a Career Check, however depending on the circumstances, Discharge SHORE/SNLR can be awarded.

Thanks for clearing that up, my memory over here is pretty much pre-human rights, or when the charter was changed and we found out we were indeed innocent until proven guilty and not the old and established your guilty now prove your innocence practice... :thumright:
 
sgtpepperband said:
Skimmer: DG is safe and well (apart from the cyclone warning as a side-effect of the bad weather hitting Bangladesh to the North at the moment). If you can get a contract with Cable & Wireless or DG-21 LLC then there's a pint with your name on it at the Brit Club... :thumright:

Christ those bastards would have been queing up to build concentration camps - hilarious if it wasn't so tragic.
 
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